How many of you that complain about slow play actively call clocks on tankers?

Proportionality FTW.

This was my point as well, it's giving players to the left of those who look early an unfair advantage

if you look early and are out of it, it's only natural to use that time to get up to pee, have a smoke break, flag down a waitress etc - you don't do those things if you plan on playing

Yes, and especially some players on tilt tend to do it all the time. I sometimes just laugh when they cant wait to just fold, showing in their body language: "look at me how unlucky I run all the time" . They know the rules not to show this so obviously but cant control themselves.

If I were listening to Negranu's master class, we wait until it's on us to act before looking at our cards and we take the same amount of time to fold or act in some other way on each hand.

That said I have always done it that way.

If I have AA or KK and there is wild action I will give away a tell I am sure. Like looking back at my cards and saying "do I really have kings while they are doing all this???"

I look really quick only when it's on me to act, make sure the cards snap, then make my decision in less than 10 seconds.


All of this is done so every hand is uniform and I don't give away any tells. I am a tournament player.

I’ll check my cards everytime first and you’ll never get a read on me.

I agree.

Now show me where I stated I got read on you or will?

SOMETIMES additional info

I mean I guess if you’re a massive fish? Maybe?

And also you can just do the reverse tells too

Correct. Preflop entails fluid decision-making, varied by the vagaries of unpredictable human behavior. Rocket science is much more cut and dry, as it more often based on absolutes. But I'm not sure what this has to do with the issue at bar.

So how much longer does it take to look at your hand when the action is on you?

Much longer, because people usually spend some time thinking of what to do with that hand, considering all the action and stack sizes of raisers/callers and stack sizes behind. Do you really not notice the difference in speed when people look in advance and when they wait for their turn?

The same. Because I am not one of those clowns we are talking about.

The ones that wait and look around. Pause. Slowly look at their hand. Pause.

I glance down once, get my cards, and remember them through the river.

My rant is people putting theatrics into simply looking at a hand preflop, pausing, then folding the j3 off.

Do you realize that in tournaments it increases their EV if they give you information that you can call someone's shove, or go all-in yourself if they planned to fold anyways with some hand like 42o?

So you are saying it wont work 100% of the time? Some of the time I got trapped?

oh no

So you are saying it wont work 100% of the time? Some of the time I got trapped or otherwise my info not correct?

oh no

Saying like dont bluff, some of the time you get caught.

( also if someone does something with 42o it means he will do it with basically everything and you will notice in no time, in certain spots that cant be good and easily spotted and no longer give credit to such players "antics" . Obv can be adjusted to on the go.)

You didn't understand. If they have something like 42o and want to fold on the BTN, it is +EV for them to let you know that so that you can call someone's shove or go all-in yourself against the blinds.

What you are describing is cheating. Telegraphing a move for the purpose of inducing action.

And generally telegraphing that you are folding the button is a negative EV decision for you except in the rare instance that someone's already raised and been reraised in front of you and its an ICM situation where a player busting significantly increases your ICM. Like what Sam Soverel did. Dont be a cheater like that guy.

Telegraphing a fold on the button is NEGATIVE EV 99% of the time. To argue otherwise is idiotic.

Waiting to look at your cards is fine.

How? Telegraphing folding is never -EV. It can only be 0EV in cash and +EV in tournaments. On the other hand telegraphing not folding is -EV.

And no, I am not doing that, I am just saying that it is a wrong argument that it is bad for someone to telegraph that they are folding (unless they are in blinds).

Ok, I'm with you on that. I hate theatrics as well. But I sort of consider that a different issue than just whether you look at your cards when action is on you or not.

So are you saying that if you look at your hand ahead of time, you dont need to take time to consider all the action in front of you, who raised and folded, or how many callers, etc. when the action gets to you? You wont have that info until the action gets to you anyway, so you cant really do it ahead of time. You cant base your decision on the action of the first couple of players to act without knowing what the other 6 players do before it gets to you.

If you always hold your cards in the air waiting for your turn when you are going to fold, you are telegraping that you are folding. But then the times you dont hold your cards in the air, you are in fact telegraphing that you are going to play.

the other day I folded AKo preflop in a tournament, it didn't feel right.

If you waste even just 5 seconds to fold every hand

You waste 2.5 minutes an hour, which over the course of 500 hours would be a wasted 20 hours a year of live poker.

If you make $50 an hour at poker, is the POTENTIAL live tell that you aren't giving off worth $1000($50x20)

That's just 5 seconds. Combine this with multiple players on average wasting 2.5 minutes in "tank folding" and how this decreases everyones winrates, but helps the losing players lose less.

Live reads DO have value, but most of the time, you're not even in tough enough games for people to take advantage. There's a human nature fear of being exploited that gets exacerbated. I have a friend who does this kind of stuff in silly wild drunk $1/1 games because he "doesn't anyone to get a read"

You EV robots are the worst. “It’s plus EV to telegraph that you’re going to fold out of turn!” That’s called angle shooting, moron. It’s bad for the game. Might as well telegraph you’re going to fold every time someone else in the hand is going to make a decision. Plus EV for you, right?

Give others the same courtesy you would want to receive and wait your turn.

Your reading comprehension is not that good? I never said that I telegraph my folding/raising decision. I was just giving contra-argument to someone who said that it is -EV decision.
Why would I wait my turn to look at my hand? I look at the moment I get my first card and a lot of times I don't even need to look at the second card to know my decision. For example, in a full-ring game if I am first to act and if I get a deuce, I don't even look at the second card and I fold my hand even before the dealing is over. That can only help everyone to get more hands per hour.