OP do you play live or online? Grinding live poker full time really let's you see where the money is coming from. If you don't feel like a predator as you smile while some guy is on his 9th re-buy (the last two on credit) then I don't know what to tell you.

The biggest regular donators usually have a gambling problem.

I believe it's predatory and that it's a mistake if you tell yourself it's not.

OTOH, I'm not sure it's important or even wise to make sure everyone else sees it that way.

Is driving a cab or cutting hair? How about a bartender? Follow the money.

Perfectly sums op my thinking.

I really don't think its predatory at all. I had thought about this several times over my life and the conclusion I came up with is this: You are playing a game with another adult who in his own self interest is trying to take your money by beating you at a game. There is no reason to feel bad about winning that game even if the other guy is stupid. The fact still remains that his motive for playing at its core was in his own self interest at my expense. So why should I feel bad about participating and winning. If anything playing poker is a predatory activity, but on both ends by all players. So you could argue all poker players are intended predators. The fact that some actually accomplish their goal doesnt make them the bad guy and the others victims.

"common decency and courtesy"? Used in relation to "don't tap the glass"??

So when some vulgar clown sits down but starts spewing $$$ and the regs all grit their teeth but put up with it purely because he is blowing buy-in after buy-in, a classic "don't tap the glass", they are doing this because they are very classy gentlemen and think his foul language makes the night enjoyable for all present? You have some interesting points but it makes them look bad when you try to change the definition of a well known term. "Don't tap the glass" has nothing at all to do with enforcing a social code - the job of the card room - and everything to do with doing whatever it takes and putting up with whatever they dish out just to keep the whale happy.

I don't believe it is immoral as it is a fair and level competition between consenting adults however I am not sure what other term besides predatory can be used when games will build around a single bad player that sits down and close straight after they leave.

Might be comforting to think that but it's not true. A lot of super loose fish are there purely to have fun and gamble. They know for example that it's a bad play to call a flop overbet shove with a gutshot or ace high. They're not trying to play optimally to win other people's money, they just like the thrill and fun of the game. There aren't as many recreational players who view the game as a source of profit as you'd like to think. Some may play with a goal of wanting a big win or the ego trip of outplaying someone but a lot of them are just playing for fun.

It's definitely not a fair and level competition lol, there are huge skill differences. I'm not saying it's an immoral thing for players to seek out fish btw, but this comment is ridiculous.

This is really interesting. I thought this was much higher.

I used to not really care much for the argument that the economy is one of the reasons the games got bad but I can imagine that number lowered quite a bit when the economy went to ****s.

Everyone has the same probability of the same cards. The rules are (generally) enforced equally in a room. How is this not a fair and level competition? Skill differences have nothing to do with a game or sport being unfair.

Can't work out if this is a level or not but just in case... your logic is like saying that because the game of football has 2 teams of 11 players each with one ball and the rules are enforced equally, then it's a fair and level competition even if Barcelona play a team of 14 year-old schoolgirls? Yes, there's nothing intrinsic about the sport that makes it unfair, but skill differential clearly matters.

IMO there is 3 types of fish

- The "casual" player : just wants to have some fun, likes poker and wants a little gamble. These guys are just regular people who think they're better than they are but probably often understand their not really making a profit. This represents the majority of Players I think, like 65-75%. These are the guys that put 50$ deposits online a month or a week or w/e. They don't have a gambling problem, they just use that money to have fun.
These guys are fuelling the micro-stakes games and some of them spin-up money and sometimes end up playing 200nl or 400nl. Same goes for them binking some $20 tourney and winning 2k, fuelling a 1KNL game.
Note : People like Guy Laliberte or other rich/famous people who fuel some of the biggest stakes fall into this category.

- The guy that thinks he is good and wants to take your money :
This is the 2nd most common type of fish, and these guys just think they are really good and are going to crush anyone and are willing to put their money on the line that they are better than you at something. They are "challenging" you for money. This is often the guy that swears in the chat and tells everyone they suck. These guys represent like 15-25% of fish imo.

These guys often deposit a little more than the previous type, because they feel like they can't loose, and often will gamble above their means, however, they tend to not deposit as often because even though they are stubborn and stupid, they do realise after loosing their last 2 paychecks that they either arent that good or arent that lucky.

- The third type of fish is the degenerate gambling addict fish
These guys deposit everyday for a long period of time, and they often deposit many hundreds a week or month. Even though these guys represent a small % of fish, like 5-10%, they probably account for 20-25% of the fish money.


I don't have any problem taking money off the first type of fish, they pay to have fun and do so knowingly and they dont have a problem.

The 2nd type of fish is just telling me "I bet I'm better than you at this game", well challenge accepted ! No problem taking his money, he's willing to bet he's better than me, if he looses that's his problem, should have done more research at what he's good at.

The 3rd type of fish is the one we all know is out there but don' think about him much because we kind of do feel sorry for them. We still welcome their money and are happy to take it, but out of the 3 types of fish, he's the one who has a real problem.

I agree with all your points, and in principal, you are correct. However, poker is predatory in the same sense that anyone opening a business is predatory. To make a business, you come up with a gain to get their money. Whether it be a product or a service, you do everything you can to get people to give you their money. Of course there are business ethics (just like how there are poker ethics, i.e. not colluding, scamming, etc) but in theory, advertising, market research, product placement, these are all practices to target people who are most likely to profit the business.

Of course, poker is a game, and professional players aren't selling anything (although it is argued that they are providing entertainment/fun/gambling) but this makes it even less important to view it as predatory in the colloquial sense. NBA all stars exploit their opponents mistakes in order to score more and win more, which in turn brings them bigger salaries. Games are for fun, and just because some people approach them differently doesn't mean that they should be viewed as a predator in the sense that most people do.

Of course it is predatory. To make money at this game you have to find weaker players to play against. The "find" is the hunt and the "weaker players" are the prey.

the main reason for "don't tap the glass" is to keep fish in a state of ignorance. if you think of it as "courtesy" you're kidding yourself. it is courteous for a salesman to rip his customers off as long as he smiles and lets them think they're getting a good deal?

if you're playing micros, then sure. but if you're playing for a living, the fish at your stakes are not depositing just $20 a week.

I think it's predatory and I don't think it matters whether it is or it isn't, we shouldn't feel bad either way IMO.

With the sort of logic itt, everything is predatory, even ballet... Hell, the barbershop quartet industry is survival of the fittest at it's finest.

The world is a predatory place.

ZZzzzzzzz...

I was hunted down at my door step the other day by a girl in a brown uniform selling cookies for $3/box. I bought a box and I don't even like cookies. Damn predators!

Tank tapping is what's ruined poker. Stupid Americans wanting to share their strategy.

If the 14 year old schoolgirls choose to play Barcelona and get belted 50-0 was the match unfair? Of course it was a total mismatch but it was not unfair as long as the rules were applied correctly throughout the match. Following through on the sporting analogy, take any league of any sport. When the first place team plays the last placed team and belts them, as long as there were no refereeing blunders, nobody will claim the match was unfair. To illustrate, from thefreedictionary.com:
unfair
1. Not just or evenhanded; biased: an unfair call by an umpire.
2. Contrary to laws or conventions, especially in commerce; unethical:

"unfair" relates to the application of rules as opposed to the eveness of competition.

I think you're a disgusting person.

I'm not sure I agree here. Whenever you play for any reasonable stakes and stack someone there is always a non-0 possibility you have just taken their weekly rent money. If you are not comfortable with that unfortunate fact then it would be impossible to play poker for anything above the micros.

kind of disagree w/ this. i feel empathy for the person because they clearly make ******ed mistakes over and over again but don't feel bad for being on the receiving end of their mistake. someone has to be, anyway.