Would be great if Dnegs or some other stars rep could give a statement regarding this.

+1

Open Letter to PokerStars Regarding Player Meetings

I think this is pretty important news that goes directly against everything that DN talks about.

Im not so sure why PLO is so important and singled out ITT as there are alot of other overraked games as well.

Anyhow, his last words have been quite different in this dutch interview:

http://nl.pokernews.com/nieuws/2015/...eanu-21533.htm


The relevant parts, translated to my best knowledge are about the HIGHLY succesfull FTP changes:

On fulltilt they brought great changes that really work well against the things Patrick spoke about. I cant share numbers, but it works really well (. You cant decide anymore on which table you play, just like livepoker. If you want to go to the Bellagio and you want to play 5/10, you cant pick and choose either. \\\\ I dont blame the players who do that right now, but it does destroy the ecosystem. Two years ago, players who deposited played alot longer with their money. And this is a problem. So I get the actions Full Tilt took, and I am happy it is succesfull. I dont know if amaya will follow suit, but it looks very likely to me, if something is a huge succes, why not implement it at PokerStars as well.

And about what is coming in the VIP/Rake changes:

I just came back from a long conversation with the bosses of Amaya. We talked about the direction of the company. Allthough alot of players will not like the way it is headed, we think it is good for the longevity of online poker. Some decisions are not good for grinders, but are for the ecosystem. I think Breakeven players will get it alot harder, but recreational players will like it alot more and the winning players will still win.



So get ready for VIP decreases, 0 table selecting and lets not forget that FTP also raised some rake on certain limits.

Table selection has always been a part of poker. It's not the site's business to make poor players' money last longer; it's their business to get more players and keep them depositing and taking a fee to spread the game in a safe environment. In ten years, online poker will simply be a casino game.

If the Bellagio had a dozen games of the same stakes to choose from, then you would not have to go to a must move because breaking tables wouldn't be of any concern. Bellagio also doesn't have dozens of guys who they pay large salaries and tournament buyins. Get Stars to dump some of these money pits and stop ****ing with the game, imo.

That said, I don't really give a **** as I can't play there anyway, but it's funny to hear players who think reducing edges is a better way to improve a site. What you call the "ecosystem" is just the site trying to earn more money per dollar deposited and has nothing to do with the players.

Spot on

He (and others) should also look into his receding hairline. It amuses me

its starting to look like incompetency on stars part tbh. who's down for some six-plus holdem?

If it's in their best interest, it's their business. Do you think they're running the games because they care if a poker pro makes a living? No. But it's not their business to pros because they're (the pros) entitled to preying on weaker players for some reason. The best thing online poker could do is mimic live poker because that's the experience that people want. Maybe more than one table because it's boring af when there's nobody beside you to talk to. Stars had it right when they had a 4 table max imo. No need for HUDs, seating scripts, or table selection. I say this as somebody who was a HUDbot and made lots of money off of table selecting and playing 16-22 tables.

What you call the "ecosystem" is just a way to say "hey!!! that money should go to me!!!!".

Well, yeah, that money should go to me - I'm the one risking my money to take other people's money and Stars gets theirs regardless of who wins and loses.

Stars provides the game, the players play, and they take a fee. Trying to slowly evolve it into a 0EV gamble is out of their scope (well, it should be).

In my opinion, they made their grave and now they should sleep in it. Do you really think they opened up 24-tabling (from 12-table max) to help players make more money /100? Ah, they wanted to rape people 24-24/7/365 on the rake.

If this were still 2005, then no one would be whining about huds, etc., because the skill gap would still be enormous, despite all the tools available today. Just turn the site into a single-table site, and problems solved.

no

Typical Negreanu, wagging his tail, and going along with the Amaya spiel. Amaya are not looking out for the game anymore- that all stopped when Isai Scheinberg stepped aside. They dress it up as being good for the game, i.e. good for the fish, but in reality they are simply trying to grab a larger slice of the fish's money. Those net depositors are who feed the game, but Amaya like to keep moving the goal posts to keep themselves ahead in the game. They are being short-sighted though- winning players are becoming a dying breed, and when THEY are gone, so is poker.

Negreanu really doesn't have much of a clue about the online eco-system, and that's a good thing for him. It means he can endorse all of the shlt that Amaya come out with, without feeling guilty.

It seems like at this point Dnegs is not worth listening to. He's not an online player and doesn't understand our needs adn what's good for the game. People to be talking to Jason Mercier or whatever online grinders stars still has.


Dnegs is looking as clueless when it comes to online poker as Hellmuth is about the entire UB scandal thining all the players got their money back. These mother****ers are so surrounded by the glitz and glamour of the industry that they don't seem to understand what the normal player is going thru especially online. At this point the dude is just another talking head with worthless **** flying out of his mouth that Amaya is feeding him.





LOL if a pro can't win then what's the point of playing? Might as well play roulette or blackjack if we are just here to gamble. Then you really get to "what's the ****ing point?" and many people will just give up poker. There won't be a carrot on the end of the stick motivating people to play.

If Amaya is doing things to kill the "golden goose" than so be it. More likely, they are doing things to get the greatest return on their investment while protecting the underlying asset. Anything that encourages recreationals to play and deposit -- regardless of what grinders think and how it negatively impacts them from limiting tables to banning third-party software to reducing rakeback at the upper end in favor of rewarding the lower end -- are an inherent long-term good for the online game and should applied.

Stop thinking of multi-tabling grinders as some kind of evil- instead just think of them as "winning players" and then follow the logic.

Already there are VERY few winning players or any sort at the small stakes games, and virtually no one that makes a very good wage anymore. The make up of players is: Very small percentage of winning players, very high percentage (95+?) of losing players.

Every change like that mentioned above is doing nothing but reduce the winning players and increase the losing players. Simple as that. By increasing the rake (which effectively is what a reduction in rewards is) Amaya are turning poker into just another unbeatable casino game.

-----

Don't get sidetracked by the software issue. That is not the problem- it is a symptom of the problem that Amaya are causing. Winning players are not where the community's anger/resentment should be focused towards.

"Multi-table grinders" make the experience far slower and less enjoyable (no chat/robotic slow play/more losing because of HUDs and better opponents) for recs. They are an undeniable "evil" as you say if they discourage recs from depositing and playing and redepositing and playing et cetera.

As for reducing rewards being equivalent to an increase in rake, I disagree. While rewards affect net returns for grinders (a term which I use to include regular winning players) it has less of an impact on recs. I would much rather see rakes reduced overall or rewards increased only on the low-end for more casual players. If those changes "need" to be funded by lowering rewards on the high end for grinders and SuperNovas then so be it.

Recs depositing and redepositing because they enjoyed the play/fun/dreams that their deposit money bought them is what will keep online poker alive in the future. Doing what multi-table grinders want will only help them at the long-term expense of recs and, perhaps, PStars.

The only Amaya Exec I have ever met (which I did in a social situation a little over a week ago) was EXTREMELY intelligent and certainly far more so than what many on this Board would attribute to anyone at that company. If he is indicative of those above him, I doubt Amaya will do anything "stupid" or self-defeating regardless of what grinders think.

No daniel, that doesnt destroy teh eco system. It is a symptom of teh current ecosystem.

Wat does/has destroy/ed teh ecosystem is pokerstrategy.com expansion into eastern europe and sauce and galfond and cts and all those other muppets who like to hear themselves talk on video...

If I could convince you it was actually people that intentionally misspell the words "the" and "what" that are destroying it, would you make the sacrifice for the good of the ecosystem and this Board and stop doing it?

Get used to it bro, language evolves and **** webster's. This **** aint static, it's always changing so stop being an old fart and change with the times broseph.



Also "aint" is a word regardless of some dumb**** English major nerd thinks. Millions of people use it everyday so it's a ****ing word.

As a recreational regular crushing the penny tables I never cared about the rake, probably killing me anyway. Never posted in any of the rake threads.

Until I just checked the rake difference between NLH & PLO cash in my HM2 database

FFS yes now I care.

ya looking at that info is enough to get you to stop playing plo, such a joke....

People who don't use the language properly don't read. People who don't read don't know anything because they had to figure it out themselves, instead of learning from others.

You got it backwards broseph, don't be the noob believing all the **** they teach you in your for profit education institutions. Way before there was ever a sentence, word or letter even written there was the spoken word.


You are thinking backwards dooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooood. All those words that webster got written down were spoken millions upon millions of times until they stuck around for a while. Acting like books and written word dictate what constitutes a language is just..... well people being miseducated.





You can put the cart in front of the horse all you won't but the horse and everyone else gonna sit there like "damn dude u stupid...."

I also checked my old HM1 partypoker db. NLH, PLO and NLDH(3cardgame) in every game my winnings are more then what I payed the site in rake. 650k hands
PS NLH is also fine. Seems totally fair from my point of view.

But PLO rake on PokerStars is double of what I made. 226k hands

Well almost yes

There are basically only two types of players: fish and winning players who all mass-table. Claiming the winning players make the experience less enjoyable for the fish is accurate, but it's inevitable and not the problem.

The total fee we pay as players is rake-less-rakeback, increasing rake or decreases the rakeback is exactly the same.

I have met many Stars' personnel, including having face-to-face discussions with the previous owner, Isai Scheinberg. Their philosphy has changed now since his departure, and that comes from the mouths of Stars' members of staff- not just the voices on the forums.

Ignorant voices supporting Amaya are only helping the game's demise.