Short
In my opinion, many regulars (specifically those located in NV) are using HUDs on WSOP.com, against TOS and NV gaming law. WSOP.com Security lacks the ability or desire to police its own games. Nevada Gaming Laws are archaic and poorly enforced, creating a more unequal playing field. Regulation can have unintended consequences and poor outcomes.

Please write the NGC, as I have done to express your concerns that regulation and non-enforcement of rules may be causing a more unlevel playing field than ever: https://gaming.nv.gov/index.aspx?recordid=156&page=246

Aside
Please do NOT turn this into a HUD vs no HUD debate. Many of the players I suspect of using a HUD are quite skilled and would win absent the use of the HUD. A HUD is a tool. Given two equally skilled players, the one with additional tools is likely to win more. I am upset that if I choose to not use the HUD (ie choose not cheat) I am at a disadvantage.

Long

I have long suspected HUD usage from players on WSOP.com, which is non-compliance of WSOP.com rules and against Nevada Gaming Law.

I am a player located in NJ and used a HUD prior to the merger between WSOP NJ and WSOP NV. After the merger, my software was rendered unusable due to the removal of hand history collection. However, based upon my years of experience, I suspected that many players, specifically those located in Nevada, were using HUD technology. I felt this way because the players in question were generating precise and accurate reads on myself and others, despite playing many tables, and allegedly without the use of aiding software.

I recently learned of the existence of "Holdem Indicator", link: http://www.holdemindicator.com/. This commercially available software enables HUD usage on WSOP.com without the necessity of hand history collection. It is my strong belief, that players located in Nevada have been using this software for YEARS, and the WSOP.com security team has lacked the capability or turned a blind eye to this cheating.

One player in 2015, self-incriminated using this software on twitch, link: https://www.cardschat.com/news/illeg...wsop-com-17737. As far as I can see, this player received a warning, a slap on the wrist. It is only logical that other players, having witnessed this episode, were signaled that the downside penalty to HUD usage was minimal and empowered them to cheat.

WSOP.com's competitors have the means to detect third party software running on one's personal machine. For example, Pokerstars does not allow the usage of the common software "Pokerstove". I was negligent of this rule and opened the software while Pokerstars was running, I was immediately issued a warning via e-mail. WSOP.com could similarly ban the software "Holdem Indicator" during game-play and detect non-compliant usage. This would fix the current problem, however, players would come up with a new solution.

I am deeply saddened by the fact that regulated online poker in the USA was supposed to eliminate these sorts of obvious problems. It is important, that as online poker becomes regulated in the states, these sorts of problems can be sorted out at inception. I urge all my fellow 2+2 members located in the USA to take action, so we can ensure better outcomes as more States ponder the question of legalizing online poker.

don't bring this up to Bill Rini on Twitter he'll block you

" I felt this way because the players in question were generating precise and accurate reads on myself and others, despite playing many tables, and allegedly without the use of aiding software. "

I get the same feeling but have no proof. As a small stakes, small winner, Its a disheartening feeling. There is 0 chance I wont get slaughtered trying to move up if guys are using HUDs and I'm not.

I wish WSOP still had a forum on here to discuss stuff like this and other things. I hope we can get some answers from WSOP on how they plan to combat this.

So, are you complaining because Stars/NJ can catch you, but Nev can't catch them other varmints ?

Is the problem Holdem Indicator or regulators or them other varmints or what ?

I'm deeply saddened in any event that you are deeply saddened that regulation in the US was "supposed" to eliminate problems but didn't.

When you create rules that you can't enforce.... the dark side wins.

you overestimate the ability of the so called skilled players and winning without HUD

That being said; if TOS states that HUD may not be used but they cannot actually enforce their own TOS I would opt not to play at the site. Yes i know there are basically no other options to play... try live

NV player here who has been playing since the site opened and a ton post merger as well. Keep in mind NV players are very experienced at playing hudless. I cant tell you how many times i've been accused of using in game tools or being a bot since we merged with NJ. I get it with pokers current state, but there aren't always monsters under your bed guys. The good NV regs are probably just like me(I'm not one) and are ridiculously good at taking notes. What else have we to do these past 4 years playing hudless vs the same people day after day? I literally have 5-20 bullet points for every single player I view as good that i can look at in game. pokerarb you state that you feel people are getting precise reads while playing tons of tables...it's 10 table max with playable software so for anyone who has been playing poker a long time, that's literally in slow motion. Precise reads for experienced players with a low table count should basically be effortless.

Are you sure the software site you linked to works on WSOP.com today? Because it lists Svenskaspel as working, and I can assure you it would not work on svenskaspel ever since they updated their client and removed HH's to be stored locally. At another point in your post you say the same was done with WSOP.com (no more HH's), so, my thought is that WSOP and Svenskaspel went the same way and that HUD doesn't work on neither of those sites

I mean, unless you know that it does and it just wasn't that you found that software and it lists wsop.com as working, which I suspect it was

Cliffs: Is there HUD software which ACTUALLY does work on wsop.com or is OP a loony?

it doesn't need HHs

I'm pretty sure WSOP.com cares less than ACR on many different fronts.

Random pppoker clubs run by sketchy Instagram poker people have better marketing and effort to build the product.


Just because you allegedly don't use a HUD and are a master notetaker, doesn't mean many others aren't using it and it isn't an issue for the site. Luckily for you, most online poker players have no idea how to take notes at any level so your edge will remain intact for the foreseeable future.

I'm not sure where the narrative that you will get slaughtered by people using HUDs comes from but I can understand why someone might feel that way. You can still have a wild amount of success not using a HUD vs others who are using a HUD. Everyone's strategy on how to improve enough to get to that point will be different and I'm sure some players won't ever be able to get there HUDless vs be able to using a HUD.



I don't see much changing anytime seen on the WSOP.com front for a few different reasons. The people in power positions have made it clear that WSOP.com isn't a major priority.

Thanks for your take CJ.

Want to clarify one thing in reference to this:


I am far less concerned with the fact that "hud using regs" have hud stats on me versus the fact that they are collecting better information on recreational players without having to expend mental resources. Without the hud and while multibling I'll see a rec limp, but I have idea if he's vpiping 60 vs 35, obviously big implications. Same for 3b% from an agro rec. Or fold to steal from a passive rec etc etc. The fact that others can generate precise reads with less effort on the softest money is what makes this situation totally appalling.

Who's in the wrong?
People cheating, the poker room not doing anything about it, or people getting cheated?

There will always be ways to gain an advantage playing online, beginning with collusion. That's why I prefer to play live, cash games or tournaments.

Wsop is a joke they don’t care and bill rini should be fired !!! That being said Wsop as it stands right now is one of the most unsafe sites for any poker player to play on. They expect us us to trust there mystery security team to stop cheating bots and collusion. That’s hilarious when they can’t stop people from using a hud after they ban them. Now we are all at a massive disadvantage if we follow the rules. They have zero security that can stop collusion bots cheating let alone huds. For god sake if you call wsop support it’s like talking to a wall!

What evidence do you have that robots are operating on the site, or that players are colluding?

Thanks for linking to a working hud.

It's like opening a department store without any cameras or security sensors. Price of goods will go up to compensate theft, punishing honest shoppers, and reducing the desire to work there.

It feels like an economically criminal offense to run such a business.

You actually expected them to offer up evidence to go with their innuendo? Do you not know how NVG operates? Facts and evidence are not needed...spewing crap is all that is required when someone is upset with a website...

There on every major site ask any poker player that’s been around. Ask Chicago Joey

Facts ok here try this

.... every top poker site has talked about banning bots and cheaters over the years but very rare they tell the players how wide spread it was. Only a year or two ago party poker had a massive bot scandal and they opened up and released a lot of the information on the accounts in question. If top sites that have been around for years can’t stop them... why do you think sites as small as wsop or any regulated site can ???

If PokerStars can’t stop bots ....and I’m sure there security team is the gold standard and there software is the best out there. You think a small regulated company with prob not even 1/10 the budget for security that a site like stars has is going to be able to stop cheating bots and collusion on old out dated software like wsop ???

People getting cheated are the obvious culprits

lol at live poker being safer than online in regards to collusion and softplay among regulars

I believe that randomness and variance are real....

It is very unlikely that there are bots on the sites referred to here, PokerstarsNJ and WSOP NV/NJ. bot operators need to be located in NJ/NV to play on these sites. That alone makes it unlikely because bot operators often collude in eastern Europe, and living in NJ/NV precludes you from playing on the sites with the most liquidity.

anecdotally, i play 50-200nl on the sites mentioned and have never suspected someone of being a bot. When playing on betonline, ignition, or ACR, that changes.