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UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings"

04-28-2014 , 08:55 AM
Not a fan of this guy for going to court to avoid paying child support, but seems like worthy news

I have seen lots of new players springing up at casino's who have moved to London for tax purposes and to play online poker, seems things won't be changing anytime soon after this court case

http://money.uk.msn.com/news/poker-p...s-court-battle

Quote:
A professional poker player who "declines to support his children" has won a legal fight after arguing that his winnings are not "earnings from gainful employment".

Court of Appeal judges have ruled in Tony Hakki's favour after the children's mother - Devrise Blair - asked the Child Support Agency to order him to pay maintenance.

Ms Blair argued that gambling was Mr Hakki's "trade or profession" and compared him to a professional sportsman.

But the Court of Appeal concluded that Mr Hakki's poker playing was not sufficiently organised for it to amount to a trade, business or profession within the regulations governing the payment of child support.

Three appeal judges have issued a written ruling after analysing the case at a hearing in London in March.

Judges said Mr Hakki had played poker for many years and was known in the "poker community" as "Tony the Hitman Hakki". They said he had been a financial broker who had been made redundant in 1998 when in his mid-40s.

Their ruling did not say how many children Mr Hakki had with Ms Blair - and did not give any details of the relationship.

"(Mr Hakki) is a professional poker player in the sense that he supports himself from his winnings at poker. He declines to support his children and the mother has made an application to the Child Support Agency for an order that he pay child support maintenance," said one appeal judge, Lord Justice Longmore, in the ruling.

"He opposes the application on the ground that his poker winnings do not constitute 'earnings' from gainful employment.

"This depends on the true construction of the Child Support (Maintenance Assessment and Special Cases) Regulations."

He added: " On the facts found I do not consider that it can be said that Mr Hakki had a sufficient organisation in his poker playing to make it amount to a trade (or a business) let alone a profession or a vocation."

Lord Justice Patten and Lord Justice Pitchford agreed.

The Appeal Court ruling was the latest stage of a legal dispute stretching back more than four years.

Mr Hakki asked appeal judges to analyse the case after a tribunal judge decided that he could be said to be "gainfully employed" as a "self-employed earner".
player

http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=103
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-28-2014 , 09:05 AM
Ironic that in the US, the fight is trying to get poker recognized as "employment" / a game of skill, while in ROW they're literally making the exact opposite argument.
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-28-2014 , 09:30 AM
good news for poker's continued tax-free status in the UK, but yet another piece of bad publicity for people who play it professionally. would be nice to occasionally read a story about a pro poker player who isnt dodging child support, cheating and getting sued by casinos, not paying debts, etc
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-28-2014 , 09:35 AM
I'm in the UK and pay child support. Might stop now.

jokes
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-28-2014 , 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fazzers
He added: " On the facts found I do not consider that it can be said that Mr Hakki had a sufficient organisation in his poker playing to make it amount to a trade (or a business) let alone a profession or a vocation."
How organized do you need to be to make it a profession?
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-28-2014 , 10:22 AM
who "declines to support his children"

understood the law stuff, and this interpretation, but it could be other way, and i discord this intrpretation ( but not from uk really dont know the law, the jurisprudence, and culture),

in a ethics way it´s pretty shameless for him.
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-28-2014 , 10:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hasu
How organized do you need to be to make it a profession?
I honestly don't know why he chose to use the word organised. Simply put, gambling winnings in the UK are not classed as taxable income and as such cannot be classed as 'gainful employment'. Perhaps his use of the term organised refers to a luck vs skill argument, i.e. are his poker winnings sustainable long-term.
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-28-2014 , 10:36 AM
Dont believe he's a pro

Sent from my ST23i using 2+2 Forums
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-28-2014 , 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4BetBoke
I honestly don't know why he chose to use the word organised. Simply put, gambling winnings in the UK are not classed as taxable income and as such cannot be classed as 'gainful employment'. Perhaps his use of the term organised refers to a luck vs skill argument, i.e. are his poker winnings sustainable long-term.
From the case of Graham v Green [1925] (see here: http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/bimmanual/bim22017.htm):

Quote:
‘Now we come to betting, pure and simple… the man who bets with the bookmaker, and that is this case. These are mere bets. Each time he puts on his money, at whatever may be the starting price. I do not think he could be said to organise his effort in the same way as a bookmaker organises his. I do not think the subject matter from his point of view is susceptible of it. In effect all he is doing is just what a man does who is a skilful player at cards, who plays every day. He plays today and he plays tomorrow and he plays the next day and he is skilful on each of the three days, more skilful on the whole than the people with whom he plays, and he wins. But I do not think that you can find, in his case, any conception arising in which his individual operations can be said to be merged in the way that particular operations are merged in the conception of a trade. I think all you can say of that man ... is that he is addicted to betting. It is extremely difficult to express, but it seems to me that people would say he is addicted to betting, and could not say that his vocation is betting. The subject is involved in great difficulty of language, which I think represents great difficulty of thought. There is no tax on a habit. I do not think ”habitual” or even “systematic” fully describes what is essential in the phrase “trade, adventure, profession or vocation”.’
Juk
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-28-2014 , 11:48 AM
Really interesting, thanks for posting.
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-29-2014 , 12:10 AM
Land of the free babay
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-29-2014 , 04:17 AM
Land of the free kiddies, have them but no need to pay for them!
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-29-2014 , 04:22 AM
Seems pretty dumb that it would matter where you got the money for the purposes of child support.
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-29-2014 , 04:37 AM
Any ruling against the legal mafia that is the CSA is a good thing. They actually take people to court and make them pay less just to justify themselves thus potentially upsetting good relations between ex couples.
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-29-2014 , 05:10 AM
Not many winners in this story
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-29-2014 , 06:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddy10-4
would be nice to occasionally read a story about a pro poker player who isnt dodging child support, cheating and getting sued by casinos, not paying debts, etc

Sounds like a pretty boring story
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-29-2014 , 07:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaycareInferno
Seems pretty dumb that it would matter where you got the money for the purposes of child support.
Agreed - I don't see why that would matter.

If someone wins millions in a lottery should they still not have to pay child support because the money is not 'earnings from gainful employment'? What about someone living off an inheritance?
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-29-2014 , 09:23 AM
Either way he`s a scumbag if he don`t support his children
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-29-2014 , 09:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by reino
Either way he`s a scumbag if he don`t support his children
Don't judge him if you don't know everything. Maybe his ex is a bitch and wont let him see his kids. Maybe already got a lot of money from him or married some other rich dude.

Men are getting ****ed the hardest financial with divorces
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-29-2014 , 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 00001
who "declines to support his children"

understood the law stuff, and this interpretation, but it could be other way, and i discord this intrpretation ( but not from uk really dont know the law, the jurisprudence, and culture),

in a ethics way it´s pretty shameless for him.
And yet in the poker world he's on the classy end.
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote
04-29-2014 , 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeleHaas
Don't judge him if you don't know everything. Maybe his ex is a bitch and wont let him see his kids. Maybe already got a lot of money from him or married some other rich dude.

As harsh as it might sounds, In the eyes of child support. None of these things really matter. He still has an obligation to provide ongoing financial support for his children. Child support is one of those situations that makes being a poker pro complicated/not ideal
UK poker player wins court case "winnings are not earnings" Quote

      
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