I was having this discussion on another forum, and would like some opinions from the 2p2 crowd.

A common trait regarding all top players is that, all of them play massive volume of hands, and think about the game constantly, wich naturally helps developing the skills that are important to be a good poker player.

Ivey says on an interview that he doesn't see him doing training videos like DN, because he thinks his edge over the competition is that he is always playing, always working on his A-Game. So basically he's saying he doesn't have a natural gift that allows him to be the best, his "work-rate" is what puts him ahead.

My question is , if an average joe, putting as much effort, dedication, study and hands , will ever be able to be a great player , or there's a skill in poker that cannot be learned, no matter how many hands you play ?

You can learn it you just need the drive and have half a brain.

No question, with enough hard work, most people can become good or even very good players. But to be at or near the top of any discipline, you need to have inate abilities that most others lack.

E.g. there are hockey players who weren't good enough to make the NHL that put in just as much work on their game as Wayne Gretzky.

the best in the game (i.e. ivey, negreanu, matusow) have an innate ability to read people and see things that most people cannot see. in matusow's book, i remember reading that when he first started playing, detecting weakness from body language came naturally to him. as for phil ivey, what he's saying is that his work habits put him over the top from his fellow pros who may also share his innate abilities. an average person may never be able to reach that elite ability without "natural talent"

poker is like every other sport / activity...should answer everything

What would be the inate qualities a poker player could have, that even the most driven couldn't replicate ?

lol matusow

I would say the only thing would be is physical tells. PPl that are used to dealing with ppl already and knowing when someone is lying (FBI,CIA agents come to mind)

I kinda wonder about it. I think Ivey might actually be more +ev doing training videos. He makes the money from the vids and he makes more and more money for more people who play at Full Tilt. I dunno ... I guess he's calculated all this.

You're putting Ivey, Negreanu, Matuswow in the same parenthetical? That's going to cost you just about all credibility.

Concentration level. Ability to perceive minute changes in people's behaviour and actions. Ability to process various types of information effectively in order to come to a decision, especially under duress.

Even the desire to improve is something that varies greatly in individuals - some of us desperately want to get better at poker, others are content with their skills as they are.

Given desire, we can all get better at these things, but perhaps only to a certain point before diminishing returns set in. As well, the speed of development will differ and this matters because we only have a finite number of hours on this earth.

Some Russian guy developed a cognitive test that he gives to (mostly) teenage kids to test their "inate" chess abilities. Keep in mind that ALL of these kids were highly motivated, highly proficient players before they took these tests. And yet, the guys who were destined to become elite players (for whatever reason) would consistenly score higher than "ordinary" chess masters.

So it's not a matter of having a " natural talent for poker " , but the inate drive to get better?

Most poker players are very competitive , so thats a personal caracteristic , not exactly a "poker especific" talent.

Even the concentration level skill can be improved, so again, not something most mortals couldn't do.

It's not something that's easy to pinpoint, but all you have to do is look at the chess world. The guys in the top 5 in the world do not work harder that the 25 players ranked just below them. They just have that little something in them that makes them just a little better at doing the complicated real-time analysis under time pressure needed to play chess.

Think of really difficult decision in poker. There are factors weighing towards one decision and others weighing the other way. You have to weigh these factors, and you have to do it fast. I really think that there are some people that are better at handling pressure, even though I admit that being exposed to pressure decision makes you better at it.

Practice can make everyone better at poker, but it will make some people "more better".

It's like everything else, really. Everybody has a potential, some have much more potential than others. Some people work hard to fulfill potential, most people don't. To compete at the highest levels in anything, it takes both components maxed out - very high potential, developed to the max through tons of hard work.

There is no such thing as "natural" talent.

I wouldn't be surprised if two kids were taken and trained the same and one ended up being better at poker.


I believe in hard work and trying to do the best you can.

I also believe in the best you can part ..... and some people can just do better.

High levels of logical and mathematical intelligence equate to "natural talent".

You are aware that without Hold-em being legalized in California that several of the boat people who are rich now would still be washing dishes in the Bicycle Club kitchen. I'm not kidding. Without poker they had zero skills to do anything else. Poker is truly an Idiot Savant game.

Idiot Savant Game?

I'm not going to say that maybe there aren't a few who fit that type who have succeeded ..... but I challenge you .... prove that hypothesis.

There are a lot of doctors and lawyers and even more wall street guys who have done quite well at poker. In fact at least one of the best high stakes poker players opted to become a wall street analyst or something like that (not sure of his exact position or title .... I do know his name if any if you don't.)

Just need a lot of luck.

exhibit A: Darvin Moon

Brilliant.

Natural talent is not a guarantee of greatness...plenty of naturally talented ppl lose their way.

Hard work is almost certainly a guarantee of (at least) competence

The best players have an innate ability PLUS work at least as hard as anybody else. Ivey and Durr spring to mind...they graft, constantly improve their game, and also have a level of feel that surpasses almost everybody

gtfo.