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Old 04-08-2021, 04:58 PM   #851
Variance51
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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would put it a near lock for masks to be mandated
Really? By the governor? It's six months from now when most people will have been vaccinated. Some states have already lifted mask mandates. I'd put it as a lock that we won't have mask mandates by the governor. I'd even put it as a near lock that the WSOP won't require masks.
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Old 04-08-2021, 05:03 PM   #852
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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Really? By the governor? It's six months from now when most people will have been vaccinated. Some states have already lifted mask mandates. I'd put it as a lock that we won't have mask mandates by the governor. I'd even put it as a near lock that the WSOP won't require masks.
Define "most". 50%+1? 70%? 90%? The answer makes a difference.

How the international community looks at things by then will play a big part in numbers as well.

I'm going to be fully vaccinated by then, but I'm not sure the border will be open, so as much as I'd like to go... maybe not.
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Old 04-08-2021, 05:10 PM   #853
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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Id be more concerned with a surge in cold and flu viruses for the fall and winter of this year, as this past year not many cases of those illnesses, so less herd immunity.
I thought there was a different flu vaccine every year because we have a large amount of different known strains (60+ and counting?) and the predominant one(s) change every year? That would suggest herd immunity for the flu is only possible through vaccination. With a significantly lower threshold than Covid.

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would put it a near lock for masks to be mandated
Did you mean "for masks not to be mandated"?
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Old 04-08-2021, 05:13 PM   #854
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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Old 04-08-2021, 05:26 PM   #855
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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I thought there was a different flu vaccine every year because we have a large amount of different known strains (60+ and counting?) and the predominant one(s) change every year? That would suggest herd immunity for the flu is only possible through vaccination. With a significantly lower threshold than Covid.


Did you mean "for masks not to be mandated"?
no I think playing with a mask will be in, I have no problem playing with a mask. plexi is fake political theater.
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Old 04-08-2021, 05:39 PM   #856
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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Define "most". 50%+1? 70%? 90%? The answer makes a difference.

How the international community looks at things by then will play a big part in numbers as well.

I'm going to be fully vaccinated by then, but I'm not sure the border will be open, so as much as I'd like to go... maybe not.
All Americans who want to be vaccinated will have by then which makes a difference when it comes to masks because the "I'm wearing a mask to protect others" will have less weight in a debate. If you don't get the vaccine you can't reasonably expect everyone to be forced to keep wearing masks. Probably 65-75% of US population will be vaccinated in addition some will have immunity because they will have had it. I'm not saying places won't allow masks or even encourage it, I'm just saying they aren't going to force you to wear them anymore.

I would think most international players will be able to come with perhaps a limited number of countries still having to deal with entrance restrictions. However as it has been stated, in terms of numbers, Americans make up the majority of volume in entrants for the WSOP and a lot of international players who come end up being pros who will find a way to come anyway.
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Old 04-08-2021, 05:48 PM   #857
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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I thought there was a different flu vaccine every year because we have a large amount of different known strains (60+ and counting?) and the predominant one(s) change every year? That would suggest herd immunity for the flu is only possible through vaccination. With a significantly lower threshold than Covid.
Yeah the flu vaccine changes every year along with it's effectiveness. Some years it is 50-60% effective, sometimes less. I guess I use the term herd immunity a little more loosely. However, if we went a whole year with not many people getting cold and flu viruses due to covid measures, than you can figure those viruses will have a larger number of people in which they can infect. BTW not trying to fear monger cold and flu just making the point it will be more of a risk relative to covid at that point.
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Old 04-08-2021, 05:51 PM   #858
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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All Americans who want to be vaccinated will have by then which makes a difference when it comes to masks because the "I'm wearing a mask to protect others" will have less weight in a debate. If you don't get the vaccine you can't reasonably expect everyone to be forced to keep wearing masks. Probably 65-75% of US population will be vaccinated in addition some will have immunity because they will have had it. I'm not saying places won't allow masks or even encourage it, I'm just saying they aren't going to force you to wear them anymore.

I would think most international players will be able to come with perhaps a limited number of countries still having to deal with entrance restrictions. However as it has been stated, in terms of numbers, Americans make up the majority of volume in entrants for the WSOP and a lot of international players who come end up being pros who will find a way to come anyway.
You're mostly correct, but I would caution you on 2 things: immunity and variants. The variants are nasty, and I've heard that if you had classic Covid, you can still get Variant Covid (maybe there are MDs ITT who could comment). My Covid anniversary is next week, and I've been told by my docs that I have zero immunity and if I did catch it again, I'm much more likely to end up in hospital (I almost did the first time).
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Old 04-08-2021, 08:33 PM   #859
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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would put it a near lock for masks to be mandated
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no I think playing with a mask will be in, I have no problem playing with a mask. plexi is fake political theater.
While there's a possibility of masking being mandatory in 6 months, it seems pretty unlikely, and thinking it's a "near lock" seems way off.

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25 weeks is a long time at the moment, things could be much better or they could be much worse. However, 25 weeks is not enough time for the Global situation to have improved dramatically, but it is enough time for the US situation to have worsened either due to virus mutations, resurgence or the vaccines not giving as long lasting immunity as we are hoping for.
That seems like a VERY pessimistic point of view. I mean, of course after the year we've had with weird ups and downs, I wouldn't rule anything out at this point, but I'd say most indications thus far are that much better is quite a bit more likely than much worse.

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At the micro level we are seeing some return to normality in countries with good vaccination programs, but at the macro level only a tiny fraction of the world's population have been vaccinated
Right. And that macro level isn't especially relevant to whether the WSOP happens, or has any restrictions. The US is one of the world's leaders in terms of getting everyone vaccinated, so absent scenarios like the ones outlined above which I would hope are unlikely, I would expect mandated restrictions to be far, far fewer in the US in 6 months.
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Old 04-09-2021, 12:24 AM   #860
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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Old 04-09-2021, 03:50 AM   #861
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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While there's a possibility of masking being mandatory in 6 months, it seems pretty unlikely, and thinking it's a "near lock" seems way off.
I think that this all depends on how you define 'mandate'. I do not think that there will be a federal/state mandate, I do however think that individual businesses will require them to be worn in order to enter or use their services which as private enterprises is their right.

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That seems like a VERY pessimistic point of view. I mean, of course after the year we've had with weird ups and downs, I wouldn't rule anything out at this point, but I'd say most indications thus far are that much better is quite a bit more likely than much worse.
It's pessimistic admittedly, but not overly so. Essentially I am saying that the likelihood of the US situation being worse than it is right now is higher than the likelihood of the global situation being significantly better. Bearing in mind the quantity of vaccine available worldwide and the risk of the rise of variants for as long as there is still significant transmission, I don't think that this is unreasonable.

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Right. And that macro level isn't especially relevant to whether the WSOP happens, or has any restrictions. The US is one of the world's leaders in terms of getting everyone vaccinated, so absent scenarios like the ones outlined above which I would hope are unlikely, I would expect mandated restrictions to be far, far fewer in the US in 6 months.
Actually the macro level is important to the WSOP. If the global situation, which is currently far worse than the US one, was to give rise to a variant that was vaccine resistant, more virulent or more deadly that would impact the WSOP. The US is unable to truly secure its borders and so the threat of that variant, or its importation, would likely lead to a further imposition of restrictions or mitigation measures. We all hope that this is not the case, but it is important to remember that just because the US is in a better situation than it was 6 months ago, does not mean that the pandemic is over or that things will only keep getting better.
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Old 04-09-2021, 04:03 AM   #862
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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I would think most international players will be able to come with perhaps a limited number of countries still having to deal with entrance restrictions. However as it has been stated, in terms of numbers, Americans make up the majority of volume in entrants for the WSOP and a lot of international players who come end up being pros who will find a way to come anyway.
Maybe you should actually have a look at what is happening around the world. Vaccine rollout in the US, UK and Israel has been very good, but elsewhere it is a fraction of the numbers and with limits on the amount that can be produced, it is extremely unlikely that most international players will be able to enter the US by the end of the year.

It's also worth pointing out that Europe is seeing another wave of infection and death, higher than before. Chile, which has a good vaccination rate is still seeing high no.s of infections and deaths. Brazil is a cautionary tale for those who think that restrictions are overblown and has big problems. All of this impacts the US too, because as long as the virus is rampant there exists the possibility of resurgence or a vaccine resistant mutation, we already know that the vaccines are less effective on the SA and Brazillian variants.

Ask any firefighter and they will tell you that you don't stop pouring water as soon as the flames die down, you quench the embers too. Just because things are going well at the moment in the US, doesn't mean that it is time to throw caution to the wind and invite a resurgence of the virus, by removing sensible, simple precautions too quickly
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Old 04-09-2021, 05:11 AM   #863
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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Maybe you should actually have a look at what is happening around the world. Vaccine rollout in the US, UK and Israel has been very good, but elsewhere it is a fraction of the numbers and with limits on the amount that can be produced, it is extremely unlikely that most international players will be able to enter the US by the end of the year.

It's also worth pointing out that Europe is seeing another wave of infection and death, higher than before. Chile, which has a good vaccination rate is still seeing high no.s of infections and deaths. Brazil is a cautionary tale for those who think that restrictions are overblown and has big problems. All of this impacts the US too, because as long as the virus is rampant there exists the possibility of resurgence or a vaccine resistant mutation, we already know that the vaccines are less effective on the SA and Brazillian variants.

Ask any firefighter and they will tell you that you don't stop pouring water as soon as the flames die down, you quench the embers too. Just because things are going well at the moment in the US, doesn't mean that it is time to throw caution to the wind and invite a resurgence of the virus, by removing sensible, simple precautions too quickly
We are talking about SIX months from now. Sure things could be worse if something like a variant emerges that is significantly resistant to the vaccine and we need another vaccine. Based on current projections though, things will be exponentially better in any country able to get vaccine out to a large portion of their population. I said most because most of the volume of international WSOP players come from countries which should have things better under control. That doesn't mean all.

The truth is a decent size portion of the population is anti-mask. Casinos aren't going to force people to wear masks beyond when they are reasonably needed (once mandates by government end) because they will lose business. Im not saying get rid of all measures right now or even next month, I'm saying in SIX months masks and other measures won't be required.

You are underestimating the effect the vaccine will have on containing the virus once the US and other countries approach total herd immunity in their respective populations. I am basing my argument based on if current trends hold. Yes, if something terrible like a strain that is totally vaccine resistant emerged than all cards are off the table.
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Old 04-09-2021, 05:35 AM   #864
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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We are talking about SIX months from now. Sure things could be worse if something like a variant emerges that is significantly resistant to the vaccine and we need another vaccine. Based on current projections though, things will be exponentially better in any country able to get vaccine out to a large portion of their population. I said most because most of the volume of international WSOP players come from countries which should have things better under control. That doesn't mean all.

The truth is a decent size portion of the population is anti-mask. Casinos aren't going to force people to wear masks beyond when they are reasonably needed (once mandates by government end) because they will lose business. Im not saying get rid of all measures right now or even next month, I'm saying in SIX months masks and other measures won't be required.

You are underestimating the effect the vaccine will have on containing the virus once the US and other countries approach total herd immunity in their respective populations. I am basing my argument based on if current trends hold. Yes, if something terrible like a strain that is totally vaccine resistant emerged than all cards are off the table.
I don't underestimate the effects of the vaccine once it has been rolled out globally. You appear to overestimate the speed with which it will be rolled out, even in developed countries, it takes time to produce, deliver and administer in the quantities that are necessary. The US has done a good job so far although still only at about 35% in 4 months, but most of Europe is at less than 10%, Canada at 16%, Mexico at 6% and the World at 5%. It is possible, even likely, that in 6 months time the US will have vaccinated enough of its population to have created some level of herd immunity, but whilst the virus is still at large globally, the threat remains.

Dropping mask requirements may gain Casinos the business of anti-maskers, but it will cost them the business of those who do not feel safe enough to visit. Which demographic is the more valuable to the Casino? That will determine their stance.

I tend to think that mask-wearing will be required in certain close contact environments for a good while yet, you may need to wear one sitting at a blackjack table, but not at a slot machine or walking around. You may need to wear one when on a plane, but not at the airport. These rules are more likely to be focused on staff welfare rather than customer benefit and could well be demanded by Union where they exist. This logic would translate to them being required at the WSOP when seated at a table in order to protect the dealer, but not when walking around.
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Old 04-09-2021, 05:37 AM   #865
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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I think that this all depends on how you define 'mandate'. I do not think that there will be a federal/state mandate, I do however think that individual businesses will require them to be worn in order to enter or use their services which as private enterprises is their right.
I don't think you're going to see too many businesses take a strong stance like that 6 months from now. But it doesn't really matter, because I think the only way you'd see businesses considering a stance like that would be if one of your worst case scenarios transpire, in which case the government would be mandating them, and I question whether an in-person WSOP would even be allowed.

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It's pessimistic admittedly, but not overly so. Essentially I am saying that the likelihood of the US situation being worse than it is right now is higher than the likelihood of the global situation being significantly better. Bearing in mind the quantity of vaccine available worldwide and the risk of the rise of variants for as long as there is still significant transmission, I don't think that this is unreasonable.
I'm not sure I'd agree it's higher, but I don't feel so strongly that I'd argue the point.

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Actually the macro level is important to the WSOP. If the global situation, which is currently far worse than the US one, was to give rise to a variant that was vaccine resistant, more virulent or more deadly that would impact the WSOP. The US is unable to truly secure its borders and so the threat of that variant, or its importation, would likely lead to a further imposition of restrictions or mitigation measures. We all hope that this is not the case, but it is important to remember that just because the US is in a better situation than it was 6 months ago, does not mean that the pandemic is over or that things will only keep getting better.
Well, sure. I was more thinking about the macro level in terms of if the US situation is positive, the worldwide situation is unlikely to affect how the WSOP comes off. And as I've said above, I think if things take some sort of bad turn where the US is still seeing a lot of mask mandating, the entire event might be in jeopardy.
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Old 04-09-2021, 05:45 AM   #866
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

masks are a way of life now??? any idea when the WSOP2021schedule will be release at date please???
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Old 04-09-2021, 05:55 AM   #867
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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masks are a way of life now??? any idea when the WSOP2021schedule will be release at date please???
You sure are anxious for this info! Patience will be a needed virtue, I'm afraid, as is to be expected in these unpredictable times.

https://www.wsop.com/news/2021/Apr/1...-FOR-2021.html

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Further details and specifics on the complete schedule will be released this summer.
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Old 04-09-2021, 07:13 AM   #868
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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"Caesars Entertainment CEO Tom Reeg told CNBC on Thursday the return of business conventions to Las Vegas looks promising after a coronavirus pandemic-induced slowdown."
It’s very difficult to take anything that guy says serious after reading the world “slowdown”.
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Maybe you should actually have a look at what is happening around the world. Vaccine rollout in the US, UK and Israel has been very good, but elsewhere it is a fraction of the numbers and with limits on the amount that can be produced, it is extremely unlikely that most international players will be able to enter the US by the end of the year.

It's also worth pointing out that Europe is seeing another wave of infection and death, higher than before.
Not sure where you get your data from. The majority of foreigners at the WSOP travel from Canada, the UK and the European Union. It’s highly likely that everyone there will have the chance to get vaccinated before the end of September. I’m also not sure about your claim of “higher than before” death numbers in Europe. Based on the German news I just watched, case numbers are rising but the number of daily deaths is down over 70% from its peak because a lot of the elderly and vulnerable population has been vaccinated.
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Old 04-09-2021, 07:21 AM   #869
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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I don't think you're going to see too many businesses take a strong stance like that 6 months from now. But it doesn't really matter, because I think the only way you'd see businesses considering a stance like that would be if one of your worst case scenarios transpire, in which case the government would be mandating them, and I question whether an in-person WSOP would even be allowed.
I'm not sure it requires worst case scenarios to transpire. Mask wearing could well become the new 'Non Smoking' - many places prohibited smoking long before it was a requirement. Even now, one of the few places in a Casino where you can't smoke is the Poker Room - which I believe is a choice of the mgmt. rather than a legal requirement. I don't think it is too hard to envision a scenario where mask wearing is not required generally, but in certain situations is a part of the t&c's of participation air travel would be a good example, or maybe whilst entering designated areas at the WSOP or even just whilst seated at a table.

In the same way, the idea of a vaccination certificate or passport is unlikely to be implemented generally (at least in a Western Democracy), but I have little doubt that proof of vaccination will be a requirement of International Travel for some time to come
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Old 04-09-2021, 07:35 AM   #870
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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It’s very difficult to take anything that guy says serious after reading the world “slowdown”.

Not sure where you get your data from. The majority of foreigners at the WSOP travel from Canada, the UK and the European Union. It’s highly likely that everyone there will have the chance to get vaccinated before the end of September. I’m also not sure about your claim of “higher than before” death numbers in Europe. Based on the German news I just watched, case numbers are rising but the number of daily deaths is down over 70% from its peak because a lot of the elderly and vulnerable population has been vaccinated.
Approx 60% of the UK adult population have now been vaccinated, however there are not even the faint murmurings of travel restrictions being lifted to the US. Gibraltar has vaccinated approx 95% of its population - still not allowed to enter the US. I appreciate that much can change in 6 months, but if you had told me a year ago that travel restrictions would still have been in place 12 months later, I would not have believed you.

Daily deaths are rising in most European countries, with the exception of the UK, with Eastern European countries suffering more than they have done previously. Poland & Ukraine for example have just reported their highest daily death totals since the beginning of the pandemic
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Old 04-09-2021, 07:47 AM   #871
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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I don't underestimate the effects of the vaccine once it has been rolled out globally. You appear to overestimate the speed with which it will be rolled out, even in developed countries, it takes time to produce, deliver and administer in the quantities that are necessary. The US has done a good job so far although still only at about 35% in 4 months, but most of Europe is at less than 10%, Canada at 16%, Mexico at 6% and the World at 5%. It is possible, even likely, that in 6 months time the US will have vaccinated enough of its population to have created some level of herd immunity, but whilst the virus is still at large globally, the threat remains.

Dropping mask requirements may gain Casinos the business of anti-maskers, but it will cost them the business of those who do not feel safe enough to visit. Which demographic is the more valuable to the Casino? That will determine their stance.

I tend to think that mask-wearing will be required in certain close contact environments for a good while yet, you may need to wear one sitting at a blackjack table, but not at a slot machine or walking around. You may need to wear one when on a plane, but not at the airport. These rules are more likely to be focused on staff welfare rather than customer benefit and could well be demanded by Union where they exist. This logic would translate to them being required at the WSOP when seated at a table in order to protect the dealer, but not when walking around.
The WSOP is majority american players. What is going on in other countries is less relevant. However, I would argue that vaccinations are accelerating in other countries, and they all will be well on there way soon. A lot of the international players are pros who are going to find a way to come. You may need to show proof of vaccination or negative covid test before entry into US or something. Some international recreational players could be deterred and figure it is too much trouble, but now were talking about a fairly small percentage of the volume of entrants, and it wont effect WSOP much one way or the other.

You could be right on masks, but if you are then something went terribly wrong along the way in my opinion. It's a fair point about the workers, a counter to that though is if they want to really be protected then they should get the vaccine instead of expecting everyone to still wear masks. I'm betting against most private establishments forcing patrons to wear masks beyond government mandates.

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Old 04-09-2021, 08:20 AM   #872
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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I'm not sure it requires worst case scenarios to transpire. Mask wearing could well become the new 'Non Smoking' - many places prohibited smoking long before it was a requirement. Even now, one of the few places in a Casino where you can't smoke is the Poker Room - which I believe is a choice of the mgmt. rather than a legal requirement. I don't think it is too hard to envision a scenario where mask wearing is not required generally, but in certain situations is a part of the t&c's of participation air travel would be a good example, or maybe whilst entering designated areas at the WSOP or even just whilst seated at a table.
Idk if this is realistic. This is the USA we are talking about, where a third of the country hasn't worn a mask for the entirety of the pandemic out of spite. I get a headache just thinking about the backlash trying to do something like this permanently.
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Old 04-09-2021, 10:39 AM   #873
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

Regardless of Covid impact, having the series in the fall is WAY better than during the 4th of July and summer.
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Old 04-09-2021, 10:40 AM   #874
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

Like like it'll be cold at night
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Old 04-09-2021, 11:25 AM   #875
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Re: Thoughts about 2021 WSOP (tentatively scheduled 09/30 - 11/23)

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Originally Posted by Variance51 View Post
You could be right on masks, but if you are then something went terribly wrong along the way in my opinion. It's a fair point about the workers, a counter to that though is if they want to really be protected then they should get the vaccine instead of expecting everyone to still wear masks. I'm betting against most private establishments forcing patrons to wear masks beyond government mandates.
Caesar's/WSOP hold all the cards here. It wouldn't shock me if they make mask wearing mandatory this year. Wear masks or don't play. And people will do it.
I'm fairly certain that they're getting a ton of legal advice that says reduce risk, reduce exposure, reduce liability.

I'd probably bet on masks being mandatory for the WSOP as of today. Everything is still rather fluid, which is why WSOP will have "subject to change" written on everything they put out there.
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