one must browse pretty dark, shitty parts of the internet to somehow end up in the cesspool that is zenith poker and then decide to pay money for their "coaching"
don't think i have ever heard a single good word about the founder lol
i am not browsing gossip or random discords so the fact that negative opinions have come up 20 times without looking for it must say something.

There preflop viewer is pretty lit. Few good guys in that group too that just were looking for a place to study/teach, and unfurtonately its just marred by Pinnock being an obnoxious *******. This statement from one of their coaches pretty much sums it up. Idk if Josh (a Zenith Coach) deleted this or it got deleted by the mods/Pinnock, but given Zenith's history of purges of people they don't like I'm guessing the latter :

And another thing I don't get:

Brandon claims there are 13 stats that he has a unique frequency for and the villain was deviating specifically to exploit him. (The claim being zenith knew the spots and the frequencies.)

Once you see the opponent counter you x times why can't you adjust/seriously consider coming up with a counter adjustment?

I believe that Brandon didn't find out about the database being used until the match was paused and he and his team did a deep dive and found the stats that were being exploited.

How can people listen to Berkey..he sounds like a dumbass. Uhh uhhh uhhh uhhh uhhh. I watched three minutes and heard "uh' 80 times. It' literally part of his vocabulary.

Anyone? The third point in particular is now my biggest question.

The funny thing is this: if a person's data from two years ago can still be exploited today, that says even less about the coaches' effectiveness.

You're missing the point by a mile 😁

They're being released on the YouTube channel. Really shameless.

George from bitb chiming in

Also a good precedent though in that coaches/students should have a clear understanding of how student data may br used or monetized by coaches.

I'm sure lots of less damaging acts occur regularly.

Got thru the bulleted points. Realized it was a bunch of people I never heard of making a big deal out of something that is not really even a scam.

Unethical? probably

Poor sportsmanship? no doubt

Scam or illegal? doubtful, unless NDA's or other contracts were signed somehow when coaching was paid for

Has anyone claimed it was illegal? I actually think this whole situation will lead to students demanding NDAs

I watched 5 minutes of the coaching and I would probably already have considered fireing the coach. guys telling him he cant use one opening for a hu match and should use like 4 or 5 including limp. i believe this guy was not training to be a hu specialist just to win a single hu match. but I guess he did win so maybe im wrong

Not hard to win when you cheat and yes having access to another players DB that you didn't earn through play and using said DB to construct a perfect counter strategy is cheating. Now if you get that DB by playing with the person it's fair game.

Watched some of the coaching videos. Student clearly a ton better than the coach. Pretty fascinating.

hes probably one of those guys whos not good enough to play very high but good at data analyses. I googled him and hes not even a full time poker player hes a pharmacist student or some ****. you know what they say if you cant do coach.

Which ah was very helpful here apparently

Don't get whats the problem with this? Seems usefull to know the response to every size.

Using 3 or 4 sizes and limp in game seems ******ed tough, but don't get what is the image supposed to prove. To me it seems the Zenith preflop stuff is much better than anything you can get for the same price out there. Got the 6max 100 and 200 bb deep and HU ranges for like 50 usd. Seems every competing product only has 1 open and 1 3bet size, is there anything that can even compete with zenith?

Having a million open/3b sizes isn't practical.

Why are they playing nl200? Or they are playing nl200 but stakes are set up differently by them?

It was nl2000 so i assume they crossbooked to pay lower rake in $$

I watched like 3 minutes of the released videos and it's the cringiest **** i have seende. That guy is straight up clueless. But im interested what the big leaks were that he got out of the database?

Why on earth do you need a reference on the response to 15 different sizes? Look at the response to like 2 or 3 sizes, and you basically know the response to the other 12.

The whole reason nobody else is selling preflop solutions for so many sizes is cause nobody gives a ****. No one generates EV by having better preflop charts besides the seller of those charts.

Having that many sizes for a HU spot may be a bit much, but doesn't have any drawback besides being more difficult to visually distinguish between them.

But afaik they seem to be the only site to show you responses vs 2x, 2.5x, 3x raises, 3bs and 4bs of different sizes....
You're punting like 20 bb/100 by defending KJo in the BB vs a UTG 3x. You may been born a genius who doesn't need charts, but some of us need to actually look at them to see how **** works and get better.

This is assuming UTG is competent.

But since most players that open 3x UTG are going to be recs. It'd be a bigger punt to not defend KJo

I seriously doubt that it's a punt not to defend KJo vs a 3x from UTG.

I think you're making a mistake assuming it's a clear defend. If you can print over 20bb/100 oop with a bad offsuit hand(in this spot) playing vs an unknown(even if most probably a rec) I think you would be playing pretty high stakes where the recs aren't so recreational... but anyway....

Just because a player is bad doesn't mean your trash hands gain value. It may be the case where your pocket pairs, suited aces, big hands gain tremendous EV but all other hands perform worse.

That would certainly be the case for I would say like 15 or 20% of recs and you still got professionals to worry about. So like 1/3 of the time you are getting raped for MORE than 20 bb/100( so on the other 2/3rds you need to win massively to compensate. These seems fair assumptions no?
Now think that there will be like 10 or 20% more of recs that don't play bad enough for you to compensate 20/bb (whitout knowing their individual tendencies ofc....). Still seems pretty fair to me...
So like half the time you would be making a mistake that costs you EV. You need to ****ing massively compensate on the other half of the time where you need to be making close to if not really 40bb/100 or even more to compensate for it. Is that really doable? It may be, I won't die on this hill, but I have my doubts....
Also you may be assuming you lose 20bb/100 to the pros. But seing as you will make MASSIVE adjustments vs the 3x utg opener based on the read that most of them will be recs , you will lose much more than that. If you are adjusting so hard as to make 40bb's more vs some recs you will no doubt get ****ed for more than 20/bb by the pros.

I mean NL10 I would snap the KJo but any higher probably not.
If you know the rec and his tendencies it will be an easy call most of the time, but if playing in the dark I'm pretty confident you are punting. I may be wrong and overstimating the number of ppl you will lose more than the 20 bb/100 and ppl who you can't overcome that but don't.
As I said won't die on this hill and if a couple of respected pros say it's a defend and any pro is crushing an uknown assumed rec half the time for like 40 or 50 bb/100 I can believe that. It's like 6 or 7% of the pot, but are you really overrealizing close to a ****ing whole small blind with an offsuit hand oop half of the time you defend? Is that ****ing realistic? It may be and I would love to be convinced. If anyone has good threads or videos showing how hard you can adjust in these kind of spots would love to see them...