Well I think we're just looking at this differently. If I'm a 5' guy who wants to play in the NBA, there's only so much I can do to my body that is going to benefit me while playing basketball. I can obviously push my body to the limits by doing weight lifting, etc., but there are certain attributes that are advantageous in basketball (namely height in this case) that I simply won't be able to attain. So maybe the upper limit on my peak physical condition is high, but the upper limit on what I can do to my body to better my chances of playing in the NBA is a great deal lower.

I don't think there are any attributes in poker that are not attainable by the average person. I don't think any person in the world can become one of the top 5 poker players ever, but I do think the average person, with a full time dedication to poker, can attain the skills and knowledge required to be successful at the game.

There must be a connection between '' natural talent '' and fate..
I mean that i know people whose personality-skill alone can make them above average players... Those people accidentally have never ever heard of ''poker''

Being tall is not a talent....

Are you sure?

This is either a complete misquote...
Or an epic level by Ivey.

It's like Tiger Woods or MJ or John Lennon saying...
"My work ethic made me the best of my generation."

You can pick out the 10 year old kids in Grade 5...
That have the talent to become Zero Sum Game Stars...
These kids are already doing high school math...
Their classmates will ALL point to the same 1 or 2 people.

People who promote the "talent doesn't matter" canard...
Don't have any talent to speak of...
And have no personal point of reference.

It's similar to "advanced education doesn't matter"...
If you don't have an Advanced Degree...
You ** cannot imagine ** the way that brutal experience...
Elevates your thinking to another level.

lol @ you guys comparing poker to chess, a 100% skill game and hockey or other sports.

yes there's natural talent in poker.

it's called having a brain and luck. some people are born "luckier" and will win more flips in their poker career than others.

im just wondering about the guys who realy made there way up with just one 10$ deposit at start or with no deposit bonus. they musst be pretty talented. i needed 1.5 years of work and like 20 x 50$ deposits before i became longrun winningplayer at online cashgames for just a small 4 figure proift a month.

saying there is no natural talent for poker has to be one of the most idiotic statements of ALL time.

I'm not going to get into the chess examples, because I don't know very much about that, but Michael Jordan was cut from his high school basketball team in grade 10. After that he started working harder, and became what he is today.

Tiger Woods is as good as he is because he has played golf all of his life, had people teaching him and helping him, and actively tries to improve his game. He doesn't just go and put in hours, he goes and learns new things every day, improving the worst parts of his game.

I'm not arguing that there isn't an element of luck in success, because there definitely is. Different people are born into different situations, and while you can still recover from a bad upbringing in a ghetto and be a great success, not all people can. There are many factors that you can't really account for(mainly the type of people you are involved with).

Also, I do believe that you need an insane competitive drive and a lot of determination to be the best at something, and I'm not sure if that is something you can learn or not. I believe that it is something that may be product of your upbringing, but I don't think you are "born with it".

The reason I really dislike this topic is so many people use talent as an excuse. If it does exist, it doesn't make near as much of a difference as people believe. If you work hard at your craft, put in the hours, try to improve what you are worst at, and utilize all of the learning materials(coaches, books, other people who do the same thing, etc), it isn't that unlikely that you will become great. It won't be easy, but its not supposed to be.


****EDIT****

Just read through the thread again and saw your other posts. I'm not saying that you can just work and be the best, but if you work and hard as you possibly can, there is a chance you will be, and if not, you will certainly be great anyways. From a poker perspective, I would say that anybody can reach the nosebleeds, however I don't know if anybody can be the best. Poker is a very unsolved game, so I think that in the long run, the person who puts in the most work will be the most successful.

I got to post 4.... lulz

edit - Of course theres natural ability. Phil Ivey has a natural ability in certain areas that make him better than others that put in the same amount of work. Thats how it is with anything else.

I got to Location: 50NL 6max

lulzzzz

But this can be trained..its basic human psychology etc etc.

I Don't think there is much natural talent for poker, and if there is it wouldnt give the players much of an edge imho.

lots of stupidity ITT

Your logic is a little off here. Kobe is the best player in the NBA; Kobe works very hard at his game; Therefore if I work as hard as he did I can be the best player in the NBA.

Where in reality Kobe was in a very small percentage of peers that had the natural athletic ability to potentially become the best. He also had the competitive drive to be the best AND worked very hard at his game. A lot of people have the natural ability to be great at something but don't have the competitive drive and a lot of people have the drive but don't have the natural ability and a lot that have both don't have the work ethic.

And for the op to say Ivey doesn't have natural ability just because he works very hard on his game is just wrong. If the top ten players in the world are all equal because they have the same inate talent for poker whoever works the hardest will come out on top.

I think you mean Obsessive compulsive personality, not OCD ,obsessive compulsive disorder. They are very different things and often mistaken for each other. OCD is really a form of anxiety disorder and its not great for poker, as it could make you nervous in high pressure situations, like tournament Ft's and such. Of course there is lots of medication for people with OCD.

stopped reading after i read that

Read the book "Talent Is Overrated: What Really Separates World-Class Performers from Everybody Else".

Awesome book.

Thats way old, I havent updated that in a couple years.

Also Im sure a lot of 50NL regulars are better than Matasow, and it doesnt take a very smart person to realize he isnt in the same league as Ivey and Negreanu, Negreanu is even suspect.

deposited $50 and never redoposited playing $1 sit n go's n working upwards.

My Brother also picked the game up quickly

I have learnt poker through playing. I havnt read forums or studied books. Far more effective to learn the hardway from experience.

I know i sound a complete douche but all the people who are saying its learnt are plain wrong .

There is a natural talent for games like chess. It's called spatial ability. Bobby fischer could see sick patterns in positions other players would call a draw because he had an abnormal sense of space. He wasn't just excellent at chess, he was probably the world's fastest solver of the 15-puzzle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15-puzzle) aswell. On top of this he was completely obsessed by chess and spent more time on the game than anyone else at the time. A combination of dedication and talent. Probably the same for Kasparov.

I think this subject is very interesting ( not because i started the thread ) , it would be great to hear what , for example, Sklansky would say about this.

LOL.

is there such thing as having natural talent for life

+1

same as anything else really. practice makes perfect, yet some are just naturally better at it than others.