How much money do you realistically plan on having saved up when you turn 60? Maybe you have a plan to have 3 million bucks saved up and you'll do just fine. But I am guessing that most skilled poker players who can make good money playing poker as a source of income aren't going to have flawless money management or 3 million bucks saved up in the bank when they turn 60. Let's say someone has 150k saved up. Certainly not enough money to live off of for the next 25 years. But certainly enough money where they can generate a decent wage playing poker still and not just constantly bleed money.

Maybe you don't want to play in your later years and have a solid plan, but others will not and won't mind playing.

hmmmm value of education, US$ v SLV???

do any of you guys play poker for a living? do you regret it post black friday?

I suppose those that don't mind are the same people that don't mind looking at lines of code all day at 65, being a cashier at Walgreens at 75 or that 90-year-old Walmart greeter?

Why on earth do you think people that have been playing the game for 30 years "won't mind" playing when they're in their "later years" just because they're profitable?

I'm guessing you're not even a winning player because only a losing player would think, "Hey, it's gotta be cool being a Q-tip making some money sitting around a poker table waiting to die."

**** that ****.

Like I said, I will continue to play during the series, but that's it and it won't be for the love of the game.

You, sir, are an idiot. Your communist views are despicable.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/17...lenge-1238630/

Click on link. Not a losing player.

I don't know what the hell is up with your attitude. Maybe you need to spend less time at the felt and get a GF and have her release all that built up tension.

I'm not speaking to JUST you DUDE. I get it, you don't like poker. Others who play for a living do like it and maybe they won't mind playing when they are 65, 70, or whatever. So they won't necessarily need to be as worried about having a set nest egg that hopefully doesn't run out before they die, because they will probably be able to make a few hundred bucks a week.

Some people in this thread who play for a living might be worried about not having 1.8 million dollars in the bank for retirement to live off of. Some people struggle with the fact that they should maybe get a job instead of play poker so they can have some of those oh so great benefits for when they hit retirement age. All I am saying is if someone decides to play poker for a majority of their income during their lives, then they won't have to worry quite as much as someone who has no means of income in retirement.

I mean it is almost like you think everyone in this thread is going to plan to have 3 million in the bank when they hit 65 and actually have it when they hit 65 as well. Some will be fine, and others won't be as fine. I bet there are plenty of 50 and 60 year olds out there right now who barely have a nickel to their name or able to get a job. **** happens. What if you have a bunch of your poker money invested that you are saving for retirement and it evaporates somehow like many people had evaporate in the 08 crash. Guess what then? You will know how to generate income for yourself and so will others in this thread probably if something doesn't go according to plan

Maybe you have this vision of retirement being sitting on the beach in Aruba sipping cocktails and playing golf everyday. Maybe that will happen for you, but it isn't exactly reality for most retirees.

Not Aruba, but Naples Florida. Your view of life is absurd.

Could be, or could be:




Put more hours in and we'll see.



How original.



No, no one. No one that plays for a living will enjoy it after 30 years. Sitting at a poker table at 60 when you don't need to AND when you've done it for tens of thousands of hours already is on the pathetic side, no?



That's not all you're saying, but I agree with the premise that, even if you don't play for a living but are a winning player, you'll possibly always have an out later in life.

You're not really understanding my point, here, you're just regurgitating rhetoric you probably heard in a Zeitgeist movie. I'm beginning to think my attempts to argue with you are futile, because you clearly assess anything without your biases creeping in to affect your judgement. Let's forget all this talk about the dollar, because that wasn't what I was trying to get at anyway (although, the idea you put forth regarding inflation and lawyer's salaries makes me wonder if you even know what the word means).

How can you say that most students studying at university aren't going to attain a meaningful degree. Over half the students at my school are part of the faculties such as the faculty of applied sciences (engineering) or the faculty of nursing. Both of these faculties provide students with skills that are in high demand, skills that can be beneficial to institutions and people in our society. I agree, people who get degrees in Film Studies or Art History are probably wasting their time, but to say that "almost all" students are getting worthless pieces of paper is just flat out incorrect. You are making some seriously broad generalizations here.

Also, I get the feeling that you think everyone who isn't a tradesmen is a drain on society. Guess what? There is more to this system than just building/repairing stuff.

Silver, you've rambled on and on and successfully hijacked the thread. Please get out of the thread. Start your own one.

Yeah my bad, the guy just struck a nerve. Carry on...

I'be interested to hear from more pros.

I coulden't agree more.

I am now 28, white and nerdy (but good looking), raised in the American dream in the Virginia Suburbs outside Washington DC. An ideal childhood. My father was a stock broker for large firm, so he made more than enough income for our family. I have had a great life so far, but never had discipline to complete a bachelors degree(gee whiz, eh?). Four years ago at age 24, I dropped out, failed at being a poker pro, and returned home broke and a failure. But I reinvented myself and studied IT for a year at an underground school full of Bangladeshis where I was the only caucasian American in class. But man, those people want to learn, and they do get jobs that pay big cash, and all these blue collar americans sit around whining about how they want manufacturing jobs to come back, and these foreign folks come here, hit the books, hit the IT job market and make it work. America does high tech now, why would we want dirty polluting factories back on US soil? Get real people! This is the 21st Century, time to accept that we make intellectual products and software, and lessor developed nations get our old 20th century jobs. Herk a Derk, its that easy.

Anyway, I jumped into the field of IT, representing myself as a guru when I barely had enough knowledge to swim with such professionals who all had degrees and certs and I had none (only an Associates Degree, LOL). I, like most poker pros, am smart enough to do IT work, and this profession pays very well (just like winning at 2/5 regularly). When you land your first big job paying you 80-100k you feel ridiculously high on life, and working with an Agile team and getting energy from contributing to a project that is vital to your companys success is exhilirating indeed. Especially for a person in their mid twenties. We are talking Enterprise level E-Commerce Solutions here people, even mobile app development to facilitate financial transactions. I was in the middle of it! You dine at expensive restaurants on business trips, all company paid, and you feel important, like a 'business-class' passenger. It is a magical experience for someone who has only know ****ty retail or laborious jobs. Now I have a real skill set in IT that I can always get hired for and paid well for, and that allows a lifestyle where you can afford to take shots at 2/5 and pay to learn the skills to conquer that game. It's all about Freedom, people. Free your mind, and your a$$ will follow!

Overall, life is variance, and you know its gonna be hard sometimes even for smart IT hipsters like me, who thinks they are something special. I got fired from that first job for political reasons, and for my own rookie corporate mistakes and faux pas. I learned from those mistakes, I am now more adroit to all the weird corporate customs that exist in invisible ink, such as not getting drunk at company parties, and not falling asleep in a meeting where your CEO is personally presenting the new project architecture, Lols and FML I made those errors. But those may be forgivable, but undercutting your scrum-masters chain of command by directly proposing radical new ideas to the group was my worst political mistake. Enough lessons learned there.

And so now Im going to play poker professionally for awhile, and chill, live, and then go back to the elite IT universe with a fresh face. I want to stack up enough bread to start a cool business, and want to befriend some like minded people who want to get to their first million well before age forty. But first I have more grinding to do, to satisfy my urge to beat the live 2/5 stakes on the regular. So to all you hopeless grinders with no real job prospects, just remember this, you can do whatever your mind is capable of. The trick is this, as they say in California, "Fake it till you Make it"

Where is this underground school that you speak of? How much did you had to pay to attend it? Did you get that degree from that school for IT... im confused is it even a school since you say underground?

I'm confused so you went and got an IT job and did that for 1 or 2 year and then quit and now want to play poker? I got lost trying to understand what you are trying to say after the 2nd paragraph.

I don't regret my decision to play poker professionaly in the least. I was an options trader on the Philadelphia Stock Exhange for 10 years and I loved that business. Now I am in the poker business for the last 8 and enjoy it even a bit more.

You have to treat poker like a business if you want to be successful and there is no other way to look at it. Half ass effort doesnt work in business and it doesnt work in poker.

Treat poker with the respect it deserves and one day poker might respect you back.

I was a moderately successful 2/5 and 5/10 grinder for about 6 years. It was okay, but it was really depressing knowing that the central part of your life that you spend the most time on is actually probably making the world a slightly worse place. Can you imagine looking back on your life and saying, "yeah, I spent most of my time in a casino with degenerate gamblers." A little depressing, although probably less depressing than sitting in a cube for your whole life. There are definitely awesome perks though that I miss a lot now (money, surprisingly nice reg community, freedom, freedom, freedom).

I think grinding live poker was cool for a little bit, but it is almost impossible not to get burned out. It is also a total mind****. I definitely couldn't feel as happy about things that I used to because your brain just learns to moderate highs and lows even when you don't want it to.

The school exists in NYC and in Tysons Corner, Virginia which is where I attended. You can PM if you want the name our a link. It costs about $3500. It is an IT bootcamp that is going to train you in enough technology to get out there and compete in the job market. They don't give a degree perse (my Associates was done at a normal Community College), they give you knowledge so you can put certain in-demand technologies on your resume, and you will be able to discuss those technologies in-depth and confidently in a job interview. I call it underground because it was a school started by a Bangladeshi businessman for the purpose of helping his countrymen who just came to America to get jobs and have the American dream. This school cannot give you a degree to put on the wall, it's 6 moths to 1 year (depending how fast you learn) and then they create a resume for you and set you loose on the job market. Your competing for the same high-level jobs as 'real' professionals who have a degree in Computer Science, but I only trained 9 months against their 4+years or more.

It's quick, dirty, underground, and I took a risk none of my friends would take (my poker sense told me it was a good decision), me being brave enough to attend a Bangladeshi school of questionable origin and being the only white guy there. Soon I was giving lectures of my own, and at the top of the class, they all loved me because I was the image of that smart, likeable, American man that is idealised in their culture. Bangladeshis and Indians, as well as others, will always respect a capable American man who can show intellect, friendship, and leadership. You must learn to fulfill an archetype of what people want to like. Remember, they came here because America is the best country on Earth, so as Americans we can't let these new arrivals see us as a bunch of slack-ass, unemployed losers, we have a reputation to keep up dammit!

But yeah, I scored my first job, worked it well for a year and 3 months, was fired, and now I'm aimlessly drifting into personal hobbies and spending too much money while not making any. That is why I'm going to grind live poker until sometime in early 2013, when I will return to job market. If I have success at beating 2/5, who knows how long I may let it ride...

Hi i cannot pm you because you dont have enough posts. You said you were fired... so you cannot find another similar job? Also... that kind of environment you mentioned would seem very strange as you would be the only non bangladesh person there. You didn't have a clue about IT before you got started right? I'm pretty computer illiterate.


WorldsBiggestNit... what are you doing now?

This will most certainly come off long winded, but I'd like to be able to explain my feeling on this topic the best I can. I'd like to premise this by saying I've never played professionally, nor do I have the poker ability to do so to be painfully honest (some of you will rightfully feel this disqualifies anything I might post on this subject, which I accept). I've thought long and hard in the past about putting in the time it would take to be successful at this game in the long term, to the point where it could be my sole source of income. After being brutally honest with myself, I realized I wouldn't be able to do it and thus I've scaled back playing poker big time. It's now nothing more than a once, maybe twice a month thing for me now. Hell, I even go months at times now not playing.

For me, quite honestly it all boiled down to the long run. Did I really want to spend the most financially productive years of my life (25-55), playing a card game which more likely than not would be a dead end? Suppose I play cards well for 10 years, then at age 35 burn out and decide to do something else. What could I possibly do? I have ten years with absolutely ZERO to put on a resume. We have an economy that is imploding, with an ever shrinking job base. The fact of the matter is, the blue collar jobs, manufacturing, etc. that we've lost over the past 15-20 years are NEVER coming back. Automation, outsourcing, debt levels, etc., all point to the painful conclusion that the standard of living our parents and grandparents enjoyed is nothing but a thing of the past for the vast majority of us. The jobs with 40 hour work weeks, 3 weeks of paid vacation per year, health insurace, a pension, and a gold watch when you retire at 55 are long gone. They've been replaced with work weeks untill you drop, buy your own health insurance, no company matching contributions, and retirement fantasies due to a stock market crippled with fraud. Even savers are screwed now with the nonstop zero percent interest rates. We are well, and truly screwed in this country. No new taxes on the wealty, entitlement cuts, or any other BS politician's line about how to turn things around will save us. You are on your own to make the life you will have, and it's going to be difficult no matter what.

Coming to this realization several years ago, I've decided to devote my career to gaining skills and experience that is not common. My best advice is to find a niche career, something in demand, which requires a ton of training/education, and just go with it. As the economy continues to deteroriate, layoffs continue, and more people become beholden to the government, those who have the skills and experience in demanding jobs are the ones who will have a fighting chance. You see, we are rapidly devolving into a service based economy. There are less and less skillfull, experienced workers. Older workers are staying on the job due to their retirements being cleaned out by Wall Street fraud, so fewer and fewer new graduates and young people are finding REAL employment. They are taking service jobs to pass the time until this pipe dream of an improving economy materializes. One day, they're all going to wake up in their mid 30s, either delivering pizzas or bartending, and wonder WTF happened. These people will be completely unemployable, just like someone who has spent the past 10 years playing a card game.

The dirty, not so little secret, is in this economy employers just aren't hiring the unemployed. It is absolutely ESSENTIAL that you maintain real, continuous employment. You see in this economy, with millions unemployed, with a true unemployment rate of around 16% (which is not some bogus, lala land government statistic), employers can be as picky as they want to be with new workers. Why would they ever hire someone who has been out of work for two years, when before them sits a resume of someone who is currently employed, has sharp skills, and has never been laid off? Right or wrong, a stigma still applies to many who have been laid off (which I believe is unjust). Many employers will see somebody laid off, and attribute the lay off to the worker themselves. Employers think "Well, I know we laid off the worst 10% of our workforce, so that's probably what this guys former company did". What do you think an employer is going to do with a resume that has a 10 year gap of NOTHING? If you ran a business, would you honestly hire some guy who has spent the past 10 years of his life in a casino, with absolutely no skills? You know your honest answer to this.

In my opinion, card playing should only be considered a part time affair. You should be devoting your best years to furthering a real career, something that will provide for you and your family in the best and worst of times for decades to come. When you're in the business world, you meet people, you make connections. You'd be amazed at the career choices people have given me. When you get into a profession such as law, which is what I'm in, so many paths open before your eyes, paths you never even considered. Answer me this, does this happen to you at a poker table? Has anyone ever offered you a job, asked you to represent them, or asked for a few hours of your time to discuss a joint venture at a poker table? You just don't meet the people you need to meet in life in a card room, and that's the brutally honest truth. Life is more about who you know, not what you know. I've worked my damned azz off in life, and my biggest breaks have come from other people. It is VERY hard to make it in this world now without connections. The best part of having connections is if the unthinkable happens and you are laid off, you have a rolodex of people you can hitup. I try to make all the connections I can, I use LinkedIn, etc. You just never know when you might have to make that call.

To sum up this mass bloviation, I don't think poker should ever be anything other than a part time gig to pick up a little extra money. As well, your job and career should never take a back seat to this game. A career is probably the most important thing you'll ever undertake in your life, and to waste so many years playing a zero sum card game, in my honest opinion, is selling yourself short of what you're truly capable of in life.

Why is donking away your money a normal thing to want to do but playing a strategy game for it's challenges and trying to play your best (like all the old guys playing chess all day in the parks do) not a normal thing to want to do?

Unclear of the point you are trying to make. They certainly are trying to play their best, but they have negative expectation in the game; it is a recreational hobby that they can afford the expense.

Ironically, this is why I switched to playing poker full-time. I played poker before the boom, so when the boom occurred and the money was super easy, it became a logical choice. I had a good career but staying in it would have yielded me far less.

That said, the game has changed and the learning curve is much higher, so to beat high-stakes games for a living from being a small-stakes recreational player requires a lot more time that could most likely be better invested in other areas. I've been playing for 21 years, and so I had the "luxury" of evolving with the game. As the games got tougher, I got better - rinse and repeat, little by little. Much less of a monumental task than it is today.



Not sure what zero-sum has to do with anything; most jobs/occupations have a zero-sum component to them, especially in a poor economy. I do agree with most everything you said in your post, however.

In the end, the choice needs to be made very carefully. Whether you have a career or work at McDonald's and have no hope for advancement due to whatever reasons, the choice needs to be thought through with the long-term in mind. Obviously, the more viable you are in a career, the more carefully you need to examine the long-term perspectives per the reasons you listed in your post.

It's obv a personal decision but I think the time has passed for any Americans who haven't been making a living playing poker for the last couple years already to just jump in and grind their way up in stakes, live or online really. If you aren't already good, and if you don't already have a BR to play 5/10nl+ your chances of succeeding(by this I mean being able to have an average to above average quality of life or better) are pretty slim.

It would seem strange, being the odd man out, but I didn't get phased by it, I actually thrived in it. I had absolutely no IT training before this, except for in high school I was in a Computer Aided Architectural Drawing class, and I learned Autocad software pretty good. I was always into techy and geeky things, reading Wired magazine growing up as a kid.

Actually, I will have no trouble finding a job when I decide to actively hunt for one, all I have to is touch up my resume with my most recent experience (such as automation testing, websevices in both SOAP and REST protocols, and database validation) and re-activate my various job-site accounts, and I will start getting emails and phone calls right away, without having to do much work.

Some people on this thread are saying how its tuff to get a job, I would beg to differ. The problem is not a lack of jobs or opportunity, its the lack of proper technical skillssets among the American population. That why all the Bengalis and Indians are getting jobs, because they know the technology. I was shocked that these people are 'guerilla-educating' themselves and have hunger and thirst and motivation to get the job, while most Americans have no clue whats going on and are not taking the same bootstrap actions to better themselves.

I love all the replies, " haha playing 1/2 live" "lol at 1/2 professionals" etc, etc

keep thinking no one makes a comfortable living playing 1/2

45-60k a year is not a pipe dream

Until variance kicks your ass and gives you a 12k year. I mean, live just doesn't give you the volume. How long have you been playing 1/2 live for a living?