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Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally?

11-18-2012 , 09:30 AM
Will play any one HU4ROLLZ @ Blinking game
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mazjr13
It's pretty much the best job in the world. Like sfetaz said, the freedom is unrivaled. Want the day off? No problem. More hours? That's not a problem either. You can wear a suit if you want to... or pajama pants. Your choice. What other job can you drink at? You never have to turn things down because of work... the life value of having a flexible schedule is unreal. I get a massage "at work" everyday... what other job comes with that? And it's fun. You're playing a game. You meet all kinds of people from all walks of life. Pretty awesome if you ask me. But I'm a pretty easy going person and I can definitely see it not being all that awesome for other personalities. Have to decide for yourself if it's something you personally would enjoy.
That all may sound great when you're 25 or 35, but are you still going to want to be grinding to make money at 55, 65, and 75? When you cut back or stop playing, you lose that income and that unrivaled freedom.

Many individuals in this thread are comparing the income to be made at poker with what they could receive in an entry-level job, overlooking the fact that salaries rise over time with a company. And even more importantly, the benefits that come with working for a company; e.g., matching 401(k) contributions or even a pension. (Yes, pensions still exist, especially in the public sector, but even without one, you can annuitize the funds in a 401(k) to provide a steady lifetime income.)

When I graduated from college, my initial salary was roughly a laughably low $12k; when I retired 33 years later, it was $160k. So, starting at age 54, I began receiving a pension of $8,000/month that will continue (with cost-of-living increases) for another 33 years or longer. (If I'm lucky enough to live so long.).

Upon retirement I moved to Las Vegas and now play recreationally a few times a week for fun and profit. I also just bought a condo on the ocean in Miami Beach for when Vegas gets too hot or too cold (With the added benefit of now playing poker against some of the worst players on the face of the earth.)

Because I made the choice after college to begin a career, I can now play poker how often or how little I want, without worrying whether I'll have enough money to pay bills this month or next.

Just a little food for thought for those of you in your 20s considering whether to turn pro or start a career.
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 12:10 PM
Quote:
What about Tennis players??? Would you lump them into the same category as Poker players as far as thinking that they are wasting their time? Not every player on circuit is making Rafael Nadal type money. What about golfers on the Nationwide tour? How much you think an average player there is pulling in a year? Probably not much.
I know you were just providing an example and that this isn't relevant to the topic anyway, but as one of the more prevalent Golf Forum posters on the site I've got to weigh in on this. Many of the Nationwide Tour (now actually the Web.com Tour) players are young guys playing to try and get their PGA Tour card for the first time, or older players trying to get back. (Traditionally the top 25 on the money list at year's end get "promoted", although those rules have changed as of this year).

There are a decent number of players on the Web.com Tour who aren't quite good enough to make it to the next level, but routinely bring in between $75k and $175k annually.
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The4thFilm
You realize that the poverty threshold is $23K for a family of 4 and that 45 million people are in it, right? So it's really not unreasonable for a young single person to get get by on $41K.
I don't understand this. It has nothing to do with what I posted. My back-and-forth with the "$45k-$65k" guy was about just how possible it is to make that range playing 1/2, not whether or not someone can live on that amount. You're arguing points that weren't made.
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC2LV
That all may sound great when you're 25 or 35, but are you still going to want to be grinding to make money at 55, 65, and 75? When you cut back or stop playing, you lose that income and that unrivaled freedom.

Many individuals in this thread are comparing the income to be made at poker with what they could receive in an entry-level job, overlooking the fact that salaries rise over time with a company. And even more importantly, the benefits that come with working for a company; e.g., matching 401(k) contributions or even a pension. (Yes, pensions still exist, especially in the public sector, but even without one, you can annuitize the funds in a 401(k) to provide a steady lifetime income.)

When I graduated from college, my initial salary was roughly a laughably low $12k; when I retired 33 years later, it was $160k. So, starting at age 54, I began receiving a pension of $8,000/month that will continue (with cost-of-living increases) for another 33 years or longer. (If I'm lucky enough to live so long.).

Upon retirement I moved to Las Vegas and now play recreationally a few times a week for fun and profit. I also just bought a condo on the ocean in Miami Beach for when Vegas gets too hot or too cold (With the added benefit of now playing poker against some of the worst players on the face of the earth.)

Because I made the choice after college to begin a career, I can now play poker how often or how little I want, without worrying whether I'll have enough money to pay bills this month or next.

Just a little food for thought for those of you in your 20s considering whether to turn pro or start a career.
These benefits do not exist any more. There's no reason to keep bringin them up. They apply to such a small number of people. You were born at the right time. You will be one of the last folks in this country to enjoy a normal retirement.
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by moki
So... how much did you lose?
gave me a good laugh to start my day
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 01:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Masakik
If you have to live grind it out, definitely have a plan and motivation to move up in stakes. 2/5NL 30 hands an hr, to me that's like watching paint dry. If you gotta do it, aim high, to play 25/50NL + live.
i don't disagree with your thinking but there isn't really much action to found at 25/50NLH+ outside a few weekend games in very few locations
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1270
i don't disagree with your thinking but there isn't really much action to found at 25/50NLH+ outside a few weekend games in very few locations
You are correct, there's no chance someone is going to consistently find live games anywhere near $25-$50 NL. $5-$10, $10-$10 will be the max games you'll find at clubs and casinos that get going with any frequency at all.
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevesmith1980
These benefits do not exist any more. There's no reason to keep bringin them up. They apply to such a small number of people. You were born at the right time. You will be one of the last folks in this country to enjoy a normal retirement.
Simply not true. Eighty-two percent of companies offer 401(k) plans and 70% of them provide matching contributions. Sixteen percent still even provide defined benefit plans (pensions). And a vast majority of government entities still provide pensions.

You may choose to ignore these facts, but you do so at your own long-term economic peril.

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/11/16...-matching.html
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC2LV
That all may sound great when you're 25 or 35, but are you still going to want to be grinding to make money at 55, 65, and 75? When you cut back or stop playing, you lose that income and that unrivaled freedom.

Many individuals in this thread are comparing the income to be made at poker with what they could receive in an entry-level job, overlooking the fact that salaries rise over time with a company. And even more importantly, the benefits that come with working for a company; e.g., matching 401(k) contributions or even a pension. (Yes, pensions still exist, especially in the public sector, but even without one, you can annuitize the funds in a 401(k) to provide a steady lifetime income.)

When I graduated from college, my initial salary was roughly a laughably low $12k; when I retired 33 years later, it was $160k. So, starting at age 54, I began receiving a pension of $8,000/month that will continue (with cost-of-living increases) for another 33 years or longer. (If I'm lucky enough to live so long.).

Upon retirement I moved to Las Vegas and now play recreationally a few times a week for fun and profit. I also just bought a condo on the ocean in Miami Beach for when Vegas gets too hot or too cold (With the added benefit of now playing poker against some of the worst players on the face of the earth.)

Because I made the choice after college to begin a career, I can now play poker how often or how little I want, without worrying whether I'll have enough money to pay bills this month or next.

Just a little food for thought for those of you in your 20s considering whether to turn pro or start a career.
Aren't pension plans basically your money that is owed to you? I mean that 8k/mo isn't the company paying out of pocket for your hard work, its your money you earned. For example if you were a poker player making 70/hr and took 5 dollars out per hour towards a "pension" wouldn't that essentially be the same thing? Sorry if I'm off base here - haven't googled enough to find out.
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyC
This will most certainly come off long winded, but I'd like to be able to explain my feeling on this topic the best I can. I'd like to premise this by saying I've never played professionally, nor do I have the poker ability to do so to be painfully honest (some of you will rightfully feel this disqualifies anything I might post on this subject, which I accept). I've thought long and hard in the past about putting in the time it would take to be successful at this game in the long term, to the point where it could be my sole source of income. After being brutally honest with myself, I realized I wouldn't be able to do it and thus I've scaled back playing poker big time. It's now nothing more than a once, maybe twice a month thing for me now. Hell, I even go months at times now not playing.

For me, quite honestly it all boiled down to the long run. Did I really want to spend the most financially productive years of my life (25-55), playing a card game which more likely than not would be a dead end? Suppose I play cards well for 10 years, then at age 35 burn out and decide to do something else. What could I possibly do? I have ten years with absolutely ZERO to put on a resume. We have an economy that is imploding, with an ever shrinking job base. The fact of the matter is, the blue collar jobs, manufacturing, etc. that we've lost over the past 15-20 years are NEVER coming back. Automation, outsourcing, debt levels, etc., all point to the painful conclusion that the standard of living our parents and grandparents enjoyed is nothing but a thing of the past for the vast majority of us. The jobs with 40 hour work weeks, 3 weeks of paid vacation per year, health insurace, a pension, and a gold watch when you retire at 55 are long gone. They've been replaced with work weeks untill you drop, buy your own health insurance, no company matching contributions, and retirement fantasies due to a stock market crippled with fraud. Even savers are screwed now with the nonstop zero percent interest rates. We are well, and truly screwed in this country. No new taxes on the wealty, entitlement cuts, or any other BS politician's line about how to turn things around will save us. You are on your own to make the life you will have, and it's going to be difficult no matter what.

Coming to this realization several years ago, I've decided to devote my career to gaining skills and experience that is not common. My best advice is to find a niche career, something in demand, which requires a ton of training/education, and just go with it. As the economy continues to deteroriate, layoffs continue, and more people become beholden to the government, those who have the skills and experience in demanding jobs are the ones who will have a fighting chance. You see, we are rapidly devolving into a service based economy. There are less and less skillfull, experienced workers. Older workers are staying on the job due to their retirements being cleaned out by Wall Street fraud, so fewer and fewer new graduates and young people are finding REAL employment. They are taking service jobs to pass the time until this pipe dream of an improving economy materializes. One day, they're all going to wake up in their mid 30s, either delivering pizzas or bartending, and wonder WTF happened. These people will be completely unemployable, just like someone who has spent the past 10 years playing a card game.

The dirty, not so little secret, is in this economy employers just aren't hiring the unemployed. It is absolutely ESSENTIAL that you maintain real, continuous employment. You see in this economy, with millions unemployed, with a true unemployment rate of around 16% (which is not some bogus, lala land government statistic), employers can be as picky as they want to be with new workers. Why would they ever hire someone who has been out of work for two years, when before them sits a resume of someone who is currently employed, has sharp skills, and has never been laid off? Right or wrong, a stigma still applies to many who have been laid off (which I believe is unjust). Many employers will see somebody laid off, and attribute the lay off to the worker themselves. Employers think "Well, I know we laid off the worst 10% of our workforce, so that's probably what this guys former company did". What do you think an employer is going to do with a resume that has a 10 year gap of NOTHING? If you ran a business, would you honestly hire some guy who has spent the past 10 years of his life in a casino, with absolutely no skills? You know your honest answer to this.

In my opinion, card playing should only be considered a part time affair. You should be devoting your best years to furthering a real career, something that will provide for you and your family in the best and worst of times for decades to come. When you're in the business world, you meet people, you make connections. You'd be amazed at the career choices people have given me. When you get into a profession such as law, which is what I'm in, so many paths open before your eyes, paths you never even considered. Answer me this, does this happen to you at a poker table? Has anyone ever offered you a job, asked you to represent them, or asked for a few hours of your time to discuss a joint venture at a poker table? You just don't meet the people you need to meet in life in a card room, and that's the brutally honest truth. Life is more about who you know, not what you know. I've worked my damned azz off in life, and my biggest breaks have come from other people. It is VERY hard to make it in this world now without connections. The best part of having connections is if the unthinkable happens and you are laid off, you have a rolodex of people you can hitup. I try to make all the connections I can, I use LinkedIn, etc. You just never know when you might have to make that call.

To sum up this mass bloviation, I don't think poker should ever be anything other than a part time gig to pick up a little extra money. As well, your job and career should never take a back seat to this game. A career is probably the most important thing you'll ever undertake in your life, and to waste so many years playing a zero sum card game, in my honest opinion, is selling yourself short of what you're truly capable of in life.
This post is good and spot on.
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 04:20 PM
Quote:
The thing for me is I almost don't want to be too comfortable financially. I make about 2k a month in residual income from my work as a contractor and the more I work and grind by doing what I do, the more money I make each and every month. I have been playing a LOT of poker the past 3 months (my thread is in PGC for those interested, playing 8/16 LHE) and have been doing very well so far. And haven't been building my regular business much at all from where it is right now.

I want to continue to grow my business to where I am at 10k a month in residual income coming in, but then I think to myself, my true passion poker won't be as fun because the results won't matter as much because I would be really financially secure.. So maybe I only want to have 3 or 4k coming in a month and make more of my money from playing poker.

I mean I can bust my ass at my job and have really good money coming in but that just doesn't appeal to me like being able to make money by hustling other people in poker to generate good income.

I've realized my happiness is in the form of being able to make decent money off others by outwitting them.
This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read. So you don't want to grow your business because the more financial comfort you have the less pain and pressure you feel from poker. And the bolded part is just a byproduct dream you've garnered from watching too much ESPN. I've played poker online for 8 years and 5 of those years being professionally, and I can assure you that it's not what you think it is.

All the other comments about the US dollar and manufacturing in the US are just way off base. I don't want to get into econ debates in NVG of all places but some of the stuff is not seeing the big picture. Like the guy saying we don't need manufacturing jobs in the US because those jobs are for brown and yellow people, umm, that may be true if our "intellectual" products were creating enough value to offset huge trade deficits so we didn't have to be subsidized by China.

Quote:
And so now Im going to play poker professionally for awhile, and chill, live, and then go back to the elite IT universe with a fresh face. I want to stack up enough bread to start a cool business, and want to befriend some like minded people who want to get to their first million well before age forty. But first I have more grinding to do, to satisfy my urge to beat the live 2/5 stakes on the regular. So to all you hopeless grinders with no real job prospects, just remember this, you can do whatever your mind is capable of. The trick is this, as they say in California, "Fake it till you Make it"
Do you even have a large sample size to know you are a winning live player? If you failed the first time, what exactly has changed this go around? If you had an IT job paying 80-100k you need to start searching desperately for another one if your only alternative is 2/5nl live poker.

Last edited by boobies4me; 11-18-2012 at 04:48 PM.
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 04:30 PM
Quote:
also goes for people who considered themselves 'ballin' at some point in their life, did you not stop and think how can i sustain this? what if it doesnt last forever?
I can certainly say I stopped and thought about it back then. Back in 2008 when the games were super soft and profitable, I knew that it wasn't sustainable and I should really capitalize on it as much as possible, so I dedicated as many possible hours I could to playing. Something around 250 hours a month usually. I also didn't go out and spend the money since I figured that unless that level of income was sustainable forever, then the money I was making couldn't be consumed on nonsense, otherwise I'd be up ****s creek when games died off. So I saved basically all of it with the intention of using it to transition into business at a later date when the games died down.

Quote:
I would absolutely hate life if i was in a position where 4 years ago i could buy anything/do anything and today i was broke.
Yeah I personally don't have much remorse for people that didn't have enough forsight to realize that just because they are making 30k a month doesnt mean they can spend 20k a month (or even worse, more) and still be OK because hey, "im making 30k/month". Their consumption should have factored in future expected earnings. Obviously if we all knew that the games would have never gotten worse and you'll always be able to win then balling out of control is fine.
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 04:43 PM
It's been very beneficial for me to play different variations of poker. For example, NLH cash games, LHE cash games, PLO cash, MTTs of all varieties, and that's just for live poker. I also played a variety of games online as well. Also traveling 3-5 times per year for tournaments can be exciting, and something to look forward to. Investing in learning different games was a worthwhile endeavor for me, and I'd recommend it to others.
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 05:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevesmith1980
These benefits do not exist any more. There's no reason to keep bringin them up. They apply to such a small number of people. You were born at the right time. You will be one of the last folks in this country to enjoy a normal retirement.
Steve, anyone earning money today can enjoy a "normal" retirement if they plan for it.

These benefits do exist. Not the same as 20, 30 or 50 years ago but they are out there. More 401K matching funds than company provided pension plans, but there's benefits to be earned.

I asked earlier in this thread about planning for later stages of life, but the players here didn't seem to want to discuss. That tells me there is little to no planning today, which is gonna make for some real ugly "golden" years.

Give and take in everything.. The freedoms offered by playing poker for a living today may force a different course at a time when some would prefer to not be working any longer.

Some are trading freedom now, for a "career" later on in life.
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 07:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SNGplayer24
Aren't pension plans basically your money that is owed to you? I mean that 8k/mo isn't the company paying out of pocket for your hard work, its your money you earned. For example if you were a poker player making 70/hr and took 5 dollars out per hour towards a "pension" wouldn't that essentially be the same thing? Sorry if I'm off base here - haven't googled enough to find out.
This is 100% accurate, it's compensation you've foregone as cash.
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 07:29 PM
funny how this thread has become about retirement planning or lack of for pro poker players

if you consider how poorly the average American does with retirement planning i doubt most poker pros will do too much worse. i haven't looked at the stats lately but i pretty sure my bankroll is likely than the average 65 year old's retirement account. this is more of a statement on Americans terrible saving habits than anything

Last edited by mike1270; 11-18-2012 at 07:38 PM.
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 07:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1270
funny how this thread has become about retirement planning or lack of for pro poker players

if you consider how poorly the average American does with retirement planning i doubt most poker pros will do too much worse. i haven't looked at the stats lately but i pretty sure my bankroll is likely than the average 65 year old's retirement account. this is more of a statement on Americans terrible saving habits than anything
Right. I was in my early 30's when I started playing for a living, so I had these things in mind before I took it up full-time. Most people don't, regardless of the occupation, and people in their 20's think anyone older than 40 were beamed onto the planet, so planning for the future is generally the last thing on their minds.
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 07:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1270
funny how this thread has become about retirement planning or lack of for pro poker players

if you consider how poorly the average American does with retirement planning i doubt most poker pros will do too much worse. i haven't looked at the stats lately but i pretty sure my bankroll is likely than the average 65 year old's retirement account. this is more of a statement on Americans terrible saving habits than anything
Lots of truth for this. But many americans are forced to spend some of their compensation on benefits in a way that poker players are not. They're automatically paying FICA taxes on all of their earnings, for instance. Many have health insurance, 401(k) match, are forced to take paid vacation/holidays (no option to work and take the cash), etc.
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 08:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rumor
Lots of truth for this. But many americans are forced to spend some of their compensation on benefits in a way that poker players are not. They're automatically paying FICA taxes on all of their earnings, for instance. Many have health insurance, 401(k) match, are forced to take paid vacation/holidays (no option to work and take the cash), etc.
This is incorrect. FICA is Medicare and Social Security taxes. If you are employed, you pay 7.65% and your employer pays 7.65%; if you are self-employed, you pay the entire 15.3% tax liability.

Health insurance is just wise to have (isn't it going to be mandatory anyway soon?). That, and all the other issues, are not unique to poker players. These are just standard issues for the self-employed. Whether you play poker, play piano at a bar, own a small roofing business or run a hot dog stand, all self-employed people must pick up the slack in those areas.

It's really not difficult. Open up an HSA and max it out each year; open up an individual 401(k) or SEP IRA and max it out each year. Keep business capital separate from individual finances, and pay yourself as an employee of a sole-proprietorship.

If you can't afford to do this, then you probably shouldn't be self-employed - in any occupation.
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 09:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 88keyz
online will have larger swings bc of the # of hands.
If you do it right, online will be lower variance for the same stakes.
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 09:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by z4reio
This is incorrect. FICA is Medicare and Social Security taxes. If you are employed, you pay 7.65% and your employer pays 7.65%; if you are self-employed, you pay the entire 15.3% tax liability.

Health insurance is just wise to have (isn't it going to be mandatory anyway soon?). That, and all the other issues, are not unique to poker players. These are just standard issues for the self-employed. Whether you play poker, play piano at a bar, own a small roofing business or run a hot dog stand, all self-employed people must pick up the slack in those areas.

It's really not difficult. Open up an HSA and max it out each year; open up an individual 401(k) or SEP IRA and max it out each year. Keep business capital separate from individual finances, and pay yourself as an employee of a sole-proprietorship.

If you can't afford to do this, then you probably shouldn't be self-employed - in any occupation.
My point is more that there are a fair amount of grinders not really paying the full 15.3% of FICA liab since they can more easily underreport income.

I certainly agree with the rest.
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 09:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rumor
My point is more that there are a fair amount of grinders not really paying the full 15.3% of FICA liab since they can more easily underreport income.

I certainly agree with the rest.
Your point is that they are at a disadvantage because tax evaders can cheat on their taxes easier?
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 09:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoot961

The point is, do the "professional" players have a plan, or do they just play poker? The same can be said/asked in any profession from CEO to greeting at Wal Mart.
.
I suggest most "professional" poker players have a dream rather than a plan
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote
11-18-2012 , 09:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hobokes
If you do it right, online will be lower variance for the same stakes.
Being that the games are tougher at the same stakes, the swings will be larger due to the smaller edge, but his assertion that the swings are larger due to larger volume is incorrect, obv.

Variance doesn't change due to the number of hands if your expectation is the same, but it allows you to realize your expectation sooner; that is, you can get 6+ months of live hands completed in a month online, for example.
Are there any Live Poker Pros That Don't Regret Their Decision to Play Professionally? Quote

      
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