Even the honest people?


How many do I know?

For those wasting time going back and forth engaging 2outs, just know that he's been on this forum in these types of threads for years now... he's basically a bitter old live player that wasn't good enough to make it in poker so he has to lie to himself to a bunch of anonymous people, while posting condescending posts even though he's the one clearly unhappy with his own existence. That's pretty well known for anyone whose been around these types of threads in NVG for a while. Let him grind out his 9-5 and keep the delusion strong.

I like how your encounters with 1/2 players have shaped your thoughts in regards to all live players....surely there's no difference between the degenerate 1/2 player and a guy making a living at 10/20

I've encountered all sorts of players during my time playing live games. 1/2, 2/5, higher stakes players, limit players, televised pros. Obviously there will be some that play higher stakes and have amassed wealth doing it, but the smart money is clearly that the pool of "1/2 degenerates" (your phrase, not mine) is much larger.

I'm 30.

I never tried to make it, I wouldn't attempt to go pro if I was the greatest player who had ever lived. It's not for me.

I'm quite happy with my existence. Life isn't perfect, but I'm pretty pleased with how things have gone 40% of the way to the finish line.

In this particular forum, I'm sure I've commented in a couple of other similar threads, and others like this one in Brick and Mortar, strategy forums, etc. I participate in them because I have an opinion and because this site is a decent time killer for me. I really couldn't care less which direction they go in, nor do I spend 3 seconds of time thinking about 2p2 when I'm not on it. You, on the other hand, seem to follow my posting history more than I do.

Sorry if an anti-pro poker stance enrages you this much, but not every response is going to be chipper.

I could make the same statement right back to you. How are YOU quantifying that there are a lot that do? Any examples?

I don't have statistics available on it at my disposal the way I have batting average stats for a certain player at my fingertips in five seconds, but anecdotally? I've literally never met anyone playing live low stakes cash NL who has paid taxes on their winnings. I doubt many would even begin to know how to do so.

Well, me. I've also been audited before, too.

I guess I quantify it by assuming honest people do honest things even when no one is looking, so I don't think there are more winning poker players who don't report any more than there is in any other cash occupation (yes, there is more under-reporting in cash businesses because dishonest people will be dishonest if given a chance, ldo).

See this is what's strange. You've literally never met anyone that's paid taxes on their winnings? Do you request 1040's when people sit at the table with you? How do you *literally* know?

Live off 2k a month? With a kid?

Rent/mortgage $1000
taxes $300
ins $50
gas $150
elec $150
cable $150
maintainence $100
car $350
gas $200
ins $60
cell $100
food $350
entertainment $250
savings $200
spending $500


Thats $3,910 after taxes net! So you need to make $60k min to just be average IMO. If you are making $2,000 a month and then pay taxes you are at $1500 a month net. How is it possible to live off 1500 or even 2000? Assume you dont pay taxes and you drop the spending on other down to $200. You need to make $3,610 a month to just get by. Thats not possible at 1/2 and hard to do consistantly at 2/5.

well i don't have a kid or play 1/2 but my budget is quite different from what you list. mortage split with my girl is way less than 1k, no car payments, 500/mo "spending"?, and i save more money than you

cost of living varies widely depending on where you live and of course lifestlye

when i think about my "poker success" - a big piece of the puzzle is that i don't have "spending leaks". that is i spend less than i earn almost every month.

My estimated budget that I listed is a low one. If you include the wife or gf then it goes up to at least 5k. Regardless, my point is that 2k a month is not realistic.

As far as you paying them, that's fantastic. It's admirable that you do, and as you can see I stated earlier that I do not doubt you're a successful pro who is making good money doing it. But I am still of the mind that you're the exception, not the norm. A sample size of yourself isn't enough.

I know a pretty good number of people who identify as pros. Some are people I'm pretty close to. Every single one has stated that they don't pay taxes.

On top of that, have a look at this very site. Pretty often, we get a "should I turn pro" thread by someone obviously young, on a hot run, and wondering about taking the plunge. Many times, this is in the form of trying to see if $2000 or some such figure will be enough for 1/2, 2/5 etc. They're suddenly looking to devote their time to full-time casino grinding with their eight buy ins.

Gun to your head - would you bet that these people ARE or AREN'T reporting what they make? There are plenty of such threads on here featuring the above.

Varies by region of the country, and not all of your estimates are accurate. There's a lot of variance in people's personal expenses when it comes to cars, entertainment, savings even the mortgage/rent.

OMG EVERYONE IN THE WORLD HAS TO MAKE $50K/YR TO GET BY!!!1

your budget is completely worthless in every way possible
every place in the country has a different col,everyone lives a different lifestyle and most people who have kids have 2 incomes (i would imagine this even more so if you play poker since you will mostly be playing nights-it's a lot easier to be a single parent if you work when your kids are in school/day care)

some people get by on half that income, some people make triple that and are in constant debt

i wouldnt want to live on 30-40k and I have no intention of still grinding poker in 20 years, but for some people 60k a year forever playing a game 40 hours a week would be a massive lifestyle upgrade

and most people who own cash businesses massively under report, but at least now you're acknowledging this goes on
i would even venture to say most poker pros, especially those on the lower end of income dont report and its even easier for them bc there really is no way for the irs to even know they play poker

i've even seen players refuse to swipe in for this reason, and even saw a guy turn down a bad beat jackpot share (5k or so) who was a 5/10 and 10/20 reg bc he didnt want anyone to even know he played poker

if you own a pizza store or something its a lot harder to hide the fact the business exists at all


what % of waiters do you think file taxes 100 pct honestly? and since we're going off the fact that people will cheat if they can let's ignore places that track how much in sales each waiter has for the year to make it as easy as possible for them to lie.

^^^^^ Bingo. The IRS has no idea that these people are even at the tables.

I appreciate that, but that sounds strange to me. It's not admirable to pay one's tax liability; it's expected. I should not be lauded for doing something everyone else does just for the fact that it's largely done on the honor system and therefore susceptible to abuse.

'Identify as pros' implies you feel they are not pros. Are they not really winning, or is there some other reason for the slight? Regardless, your sample is small also, and these guys don't sound very bright.

Yeah, I've been a member of this site since before the ubb implementation (1998 or so) and have seen this story many times.

I don't think many of those types have any concrete tax liability. It's not reported in the way the IRS likes to tax gamblers (sessions), so a net-zero year can still have tax implications (but that may just be for amateurs itemizing losses on a schedule A and not for professionals filing a schedule C).

Whatever - the point is they're likely not winners and the IRS probably doesn't care a whole lot about net losers, just like they don't with slot and pit players. If they did, they'd track all money at a casino and not just amounts that trigger a W2G or CTRC.

Actually, I haven't changed my position at all - you're just confused.

There are plenty of dishonest people that pay their taxes honestly simply because it would be very difficult for them to evade their taxes safely. If they worked in an environment that deals with cash reporting, then yes, I'd expect them to cheat.

However, simply because this is true, doesn't mean that *most* people massively under-report their income in cash businesses. That is, unless you think *most* people are dishonest.

Again, dishonest people cheat on their taxes. No shocker there, but I'm not "going off the fact that *people* will cheat if they can". I think honest people won't cheat if they have the opportunity to.

So you're question really is, how many waiters do I think are dishonest? I don't know.

Bingo...? No, I think everyone realizes that the best way to evade taxes is to make income from a source that is undocumented. That said, tax cheats, in any field, have to be able to substantiate how they live.

This is kind of going in circles, though. Both of you are saying that most people cheat on their taxes if given the chance, and I'm saying only the dishonest people do. I think that is the same thing, so really the only point of contention here is that you guys think there's more dishonest people than honest people in the world. I have no desire to debate that, though.

you have to substantiate it to a point
if you spend tons of money on stocks mortgages cars etc its one thing

if you spend a lot of it on restaurants bar tabs jewelry clothes hookers drugs gadgets maybe help your parents out with money once in a while there really isnt much to substantiate

and the less someone makes the easier it is to hide it

i think most people are honest to a point
they would return a lost wallet, not shoplift etc but taxes are looked at a lot differently for a lot of reasons

I am extremely happy to be a semi-pro. I love the balance of having a great flexible job plus playing 40 hours/month of poker.

I honestly think I would be miserable doing it full time.

I feel like I get all the positive aspects of the game without the negatives.

As the saying goes, "Don't mess with the IRS." Waiters and waitresses don't get a free pass any more.

The IRS now requires that wait staff count a certain percentage of their wages as tip income whether or not they in fact made that much in tip income.

If we keep tweaking the IRS enough, for example, by either advocating tax evasion in there forums or elsewhere, or by stating that almost every poker player is evading taxes (which I conceed could be true) they will find a way to get theirs sooner or later.

And don't forget, your friends and neighbors get paid if they report you. Let's say you play regularly in the local casino and you don't report that income. Once someone rats you out, the IRS could, for example, interview casino employees to find out if you're a regular, what games you play, and if you're a consistent winner.

One more thing. If we get regulated poker, either in your state or by the federal government, and bellagiopoker.com reports that you made 50K online in 2014, don't you think that the IRS might be curious about how much you made online in 2013 or 2012? They might not be able to get your records from Merge Poker, but they can look at your computer and your bank records. Evading taxes is playing with fire.

Keep it simple people. As someone already said in this post, value your freedom. Obey the law. Just pay your taxes.

You can desire not to debate it all you want, but the simple fact that is clearly realized by everyone here but you is that the vast majority of people using the words "live pro" to describe themselves are not declaring any income. If I took the time to jump around this site to pull up 100 people from "Should I turn pro" or "Been a live 1/2 NL pro since XYZ date" or "Bankrolls" threads, I doubt I'd find 10 who declare their poker income.

Your argument seems to be this: you take the total sample of people who claim to play professionally, extract anyone who doesn't pay taxes by making excuses for them, then take the rest and claim, "see! lots of players pay taxes"!.

Pretty much sums up my exact feelings on the topic, although the negative for me that is pretty prevalent is finding games to begin with. (Wouldn't describe myself as a semi-pro though, and likely take it more recreationally than Clorox does)

im actually the one who said that-but that doesnt mean most people who play poker, wait tables etc don't lie a lot on their taxes

lol, no. I just don't sweat delusional losing players who don't report, just like the IRS doesn't either.

Most gamblers don't report taxes because most, despite their claims, are losing players. Most poker players bringing in substantial money do report accurately, imo.