You clearly are correct with regards to people who are self-employed cheating the tax system. There are obviously plenty who pay no taxes at all, or underpay by a lot. I would question how some of these people get the things they get as well. Maybe there's a thread somewhere that discusses this. I'm keeping it to pro poker here because that's what this thread is. I'm not saying everyone doesn't pay taxes, I bet that a lot of the higher stakes online guys do, but plenty don't, especially with live play.

As far as the first paragraph, please don't get me wrong - if people are legitimately playing medium to high stakes as their sole means of living, and providing for themselves and their family etc, that's great for them. It isn't my thing, but that's just me, it might work for them and they might be doing quite well at it. It's just that so much drivel gets spewed here about being a pro by people who clearly are not true professionals.

No one said it was, and no one said there's shame in renting. The other poster bragged about owning rental homes as some form of proof that his online play had led to massive success, I simply wondered how this was being done if this person wasn't declaring the income.

Come to think of it, it'd actually matter with regards to renting anyway. I would think most landlords require a credit check and proof of employment, a pay stub, etc in order to approve a tenant.

Well, from my own personal experience from my divorce and foreclosure in 2006....they don't require any of that. I've rented 3 apt's and have now been at this house for 2 1/2 years. All they wanted was first and last and a deposit. They didn't care where the money came from. A product of the recent economical times, I'm sure.

Funnily enough that's exactly how my poker career started. I did this with a $500 roulette spin and hit at 18 years old over 10 years ago. I don't gamble, but the less than 100 spins of roulette I've done in my life have been amazing.

The best was when I busted in a plo game night before flying back home and not considering playing a main event. I put my last $50 (in that currency) on black as I didn't have enough cash to get to the airport and eat without going to the ATM. It came zero and I walked away until they called be back and I had lost only half my money. I put the rest on a number, it hit, then I spread it around a little and my number came again.

Now I had the buy-in for the main event and ended up winning over 200k. Had I not played it would not have been the same. I had the bankroll to play the main event, but getting more than a few hundred immediately abroad can be a challenge so I would not have bothered without my roulette success.

I dont see a problem with his view - there's a ton of "pros" who make little to no money yet are calling themselves pros - hes not saying successful players are losers.....there's too many guys holding onto dreams that will never happen

Wha, on all of 2+2? There's like 300,000 members, so I'd say between 0.03% and 0.04% have $150K+ bankroll for poker.


This is all just speculated rubbish. The IRS tends to notice things like claiming little to no income yet making mortgage payments. Poker is a cash business (well, not really anymore), but life isn't a cash only system. We are not drug dealers where it naturally makes sense to launder your money in order to hide your occupation.

If someone doesn't pay his tax liability, then he's simply a tax cheat; occupation has nothing to do with it. Cash based and self-employed businesses make it easier to conceal full earnings, but that alone doesn't constitute a tax cheat - you either are one or you are not - the occupation doesn't matter.

And lol that you've never met anyone that filed a tax return playing live. Do you interview everyone at your table? Come on... project much?

yeh ive seen his posts time to time, but what hes saying here i 100% agree with(and i play poker for an income)

My point wasn't that everyone needs a 150K bankroll. My point was that the wanted to play on the World Poker Tour and he knew that he needed to have a huge bankroll to do it.

Change World Poker Tour to Heartland Poker Tour or your local casino if you want. His point was that if that if poker was going to be your job you better have the bankroll to weather the variance.

This is a great post.

As for as taxes/mortgages

Most live cash game players either don't declare or massively under declare-I think its stupid and value my freedom so i pay my taxes and dont have to worry about ending up in jail down the road and having my assets siezed. I like my assets and I like my virgin ******* even more.

As far as mortgages-its simple. If you have been paying taxes honestly then you use your tax forms to get a mortgage. If you havent been then you're out of luck.

But lets take away the legality of taxes away for a second and just think about getting a mortgage. If you had a choice b/w keeping all of your money and not getting a mortgage or giving 1/3rd or your money away and being able to get a mortgage you would really have to be a complete dolt to think its worth giving 1/3rd of your money away in exchange for the privilege of being able to get a loan. If anyone wants to give me everything I pay in taxes each year and in exchange I can never borrow money please let me know.

not really
give a landlord 6 months or a years worth of rent upfront and see if he gives a **** about a credit check

wat

Now, how the **** would you know???

But you think cash poker players can't run this EV calc for themselves?

So many ******ed posts regarding paying taxes. Since the above quote indicates you pay your taxes only because you fear the repercussions of not doing so kind of speaks as to why you assume most professionals in cash industries don't report honestly.

Possibly a product of the times, possibly a product of the region of the country we're talking about. I rented in my early 20's in the NY area, and I can assure you from my own personal experience and from speaking to others that owners go overboard making sure their tenants will not be a problem down the line. Credit checks, employment verification, background checks, etc.

1) I don't "keep saying" anything, I said it once in response to a question asked.

2) You clearly come off as someone very young and irate over what I said. I'm sorry, but it's true. As far as "average" pay, I suppose this would depend on your definition of "average", but based on simple logic and common knowledge, my wife and I both make quite a bit more than "average" pay. If it makes you feel better to claim that I do, be my guest and have at it.

3) I'm sure there are players that are great and are making a ton. I've acknowledged this in other posts. I'm glad for them, I wish them the best. The number of people doing this clearly pales in comparison to the number of people here who are pretend pros.

4) I'm not bitter at all. I frankly don't care, it's not relevant to my life. I'm simply discussing things which are the point of this thread. Not all responses are going to be sunshine and balloons.

You continue to make it obvious that you're a kid in his early 20's who likely goes to bed at night fantasizing about being the next Tom Dwan. Even though your post is absurd, I'll respond to it.

I'm a recreational live player who has few playing options, as there is no casino near me and I've sworn off illegal/overraked underground games, and I'm not into online. I make trips to the casino when I can, where I play about two-thirds 1/2 and another third 2/5. My other option is home games, which are harder to find than one would think. I'll play whatever stakes are available in home games - I'm there to enjoy myself on a Saturday night, have a beer or two (or eight), and play. There are some enjoyable .25-.50, .50-1, 1/2 home games that I go to, as well as SnG's. Since I'm not making a living off them, it really makes little difference to me. As anyone can see from my posting history, I've posted hands across all walks of the poker scene.

I'm glad you're affected enough by my posts that you sit around ranting that I'm a clown and analyzing what games I sit in.

No interest in doing it.

As far as the 2nd paragraph, I actually have no idea what this means or what sense it even makes. What in the name of God was I proven wrong on?

Of course a lot of it is speculated, but it surely isn't rubbish. Give me a break with the idea that most people posting here about playing 1/2 NL for a living are paying taxes on what they do?

And yeah, I haven't met one person that ever has. Now, this doesn't mean that no one does, but it's pretty relevant. It's not an accident that basically everyone I've ever spoken to who claims to play live low stakes for a living is doing so simply as a cash-based personal business and not paying taxes.

Perhaps we'll talk more when you move out of your parent's house in a few years. You can go to bed soon obsessing over my posts, I'll be going to bed in a few, not giving you a second thought.

So you think only ~100 2+2 members have $150k+ bankrolls? Considering that probably more than half of all serious pro poker players have a 2+2 account, I think your estimate is extremely low.

I guess you could say that poker is going to be part of my retirement plan. I like playing poker. I don't NEED to play poker, but the extra money will certainly improve our lifestyle.

As I said in my post, we have a retirement plan. My wife has worked for the same hospital system since age 16. She worked there while she finished high school, then went to a local college. My wife will continue to contribute to her retirement plan until she retires, at age 65. By then I should certainly be making some serious money. Also, I start collecting my military retirement in 3 years.

I like to play poker, and I know that I can make money at it, because I'm willing to do the work. Until the end of the year, I'm doing nothing with my poker money but build a bankroll. I have taken nothing out. I'm putting in 40 hours a week (playing and studying) and I'm working on rearranging some things so I can put in at least 50 hours a week. I've had a lot of jobs where I worked more hours than that.

I realize that I'm too tight for today's games, so I'm taking my game apart and puttting in back together. I'm studying Johnathan Little's books and videos, and soon I'll mix in some other young LAG authors.

I have the desire to be good at this game. Whether I make 20K or 100K next year isn't a critical issue, but I think I'll have the ability to make 100K before too long.

My wife and I have talked about this a lot, she thinks I can do it, and I'm going in with my eyes open. As a musician who sat in a practice room grinding scales, I know what it takes to make it to the top (principal clarinet in an army band.) I have run marathons and held local political office. I know how to do the work to reach a goal.

Of course, I'm never going to have a $1 million bankroll like Johnathan Little, so my ceiling is a perhaps a bit lower than his.

After everything I have read, I agree that some people can't make it happen, but even for those who have everything against them, somehow a few make it. I remember a post from a single mother who supports herself and her two kids by playing online poker.

A lot of people on these forums think that "old people" can't be consistent winners any more. My response to that is that Mike Sexton is 8 years older than I am.

Posters in this thread are correct that a lot of people, especially the younger ones, are unrealistic. Just because you're a college student making plenty of money to go out to the club every weekend doesn't mean that you can make a decent, sustainable income. But some of those college students are touring players now. A single parent probably won't have the time/energy/bankroll to make it work, but at least one did.

Playing poker is like any other job. Some salesman get rich, and some don't. Some students make it through medical school or law school, and some don't. Most high school football stars don't make it to the pros, but a few do. Earl Morrall http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Morrall graduated from the same high school as my children, and he is not the only one from that school to make it to the NFL.

Could the games dry up? It's possible, but that's life. I've worked at around 10 places that went out of business.

If poker is going to be your job, and you're serious about it, just look at it as you would any other job: Is my wife on board with this? If my parents think I'm crazy or degenerate, will I keep going regardless of what they think? What kind of bankroll do I need? Do I have savings/investments apart from my bankroll? Can I get another job if this doesn't work out? Should I finish my degree part time just in case, or should I play part-time and finish my degree first? Do I understand the tax implications of this? How do I get insurance or put away money for retirement if I don't have an employer?

Can you be a pro, defined as making a living at poker? Probably not. I couldn't even attempt it I didn't have a supportive wife, and if insurance/retirement/etc. wasn't already in place. But there are certainly people reading this post who are doing it, even after Black Friday.

Still not seeing how you're quantifying this.


That are full-time players, yeah, probably. I think there's many that were like me before playing full-time that have that or more for poker but still have a job. I'm also thinking active 2+2ers, not Jennifer Harman or whatever that has a few posts in a decade.

I was speaking specifically about online poker. It's not going to be a viable option in the future (it's not a viable option for me right now due to the games I play). You play MTTs. That's fine and dandy now, grinding out low buyin MTTs as your wife allows you to build a roll. 5 years from now, and you'll likely be put on the streets too (i.e., forced to play live), as you'll have no games to play.

That leaves you with live MTTs, and even if you were 30 years old and not in your 50's or whatever, you wouldn't be able to live long enough for your results to converge to expectation. I've said it many times to you before, and I'll say it again here: learn to grind cash.

I agree there's nothing wrong with renting. But the reason home ownership is associated with prosperity is that by paying your monthly mortgage, you not only get a place to live (as you do with renting), but you also built up equity (wealth) in your home.

lol so you say something idiotic like only .03%-.04% of players have 150 k rolls on 2p2 then have the audacity to ask me "how the **** do I know" most live players don't pay what they should in taxes? lolololool good one
After saying something so stupid I'm wondering how the **** you even know how to tie your shoes.

to start with it's called using common sense.
most people in any kind of all cash business massively under report.
then you read the posts on here and get to know players live and they talk about taxes like they are a joke.Even when big tournament wins or bad beat jackpots come up which come with tax forms they already have schemes ready to try and offset the losses. You think when these people win cash at the table of which there are no tax forms thats when they turn honest?

there are tons of people on 2p2 who got 6 figures in wires and checks who it never even dawned on to pay taxes and that's with some sort of paper trail (albeit no tax forms)."as long as i deposit my money as 34 checks of 9,000 dollars each ill stay under the radar" lolol

i also guarantee i know a lot more winning high stakes poker players than you do and most of them don't pay or massively underpay.


and the ev calc most of them do is something like this:

1)a lot of them both live and online have no idea how taxes even work and it never dawns on them to pay them so there is no ev calc
2)or they do and their ev calculation is pretty much "**** them theyll never catch me"

You're also completely forgetting the lack of record keeping most live players do.

Me fearing the repercussions of not paying taxes more than most poker players do means I put more thought into paying taxes than most of them.
Most professionals in all cash industries don't report honestly and you really are dumber than a pile of dirt if you think that they do.

Why do you think so many more self employed people get into tax trouble than people who work normal jobs? Its a lot harder to hide income when you get a w-2. hell why the **** do you think they issue w-2s to start with if everyone would just be honest about it without them?

What's next you're gonna give me some patriotic lecture filled with propaganda on why I should pay taxes for reasons other than fear?