Chicken or egg?

When thinking about those numbers, especially your "monthly nut" I would add that you don't have to be a "baller", whether you're young and hanging out with your poker friends, or age 40 with 3 kids.

I have an awful lot of flexibility because I don't do debt any more (it will all be paid off soon.) My wife and I are happy driving used cars for which we paid cash. My last car cost $2k and I drove it for 5 years before someone ran a red light and totaled it.

If you're buying only what you can afford and don't always have to have the coolest new car/phone/whatever, making a living player poker (or doing anything else) will be a lot less stressful.

Yeah, this is the point I was mentioning earlier in the thread too -- that young guys that are not correctly assessing how much more than a normal job you'll want to be making to offset other variables that poker involves.

Your nut is 90K a year and you play 40/80-80/160 limit? That sounds like a super ****ty grind. What were you playing online?

Always makes me laugh at the irony of online players arguing that they won't go to casinos because of the smelly degens there.....as if they're somehow superior human specimens because they sit at home in their mums basement.

chicken

That's a truism in life, regardless of what your chosen profession is. It really doesn't matter how much money you make, it matters whether you live within your means or not. This is why you read about rich sports players or actors going bankrupt... they lived beyond their means, despite having a high income.

I assume you meant 529 College Funds. Anyway, you've got the key... ensuring that your monthly nut includes savings for all of these things will make for a much more stress-free life.

If you're not putting money aside for retirement, savings, non-retirement investments, etc., you're probably living beyond your means... or at the very least, not planning for a comfortable future in which you can ride it out when things go wrong.

Handling BRM properly, and dealing with variance and downswings are all life skills, not just poker skills. Apply them all to both.

How much money does the average live pro make? Limon mentioned that a 5/10nl reg who makes 100k/year is top 1 percent. And from what people tell me... 100k is probably the MAX one could make at live poker.

And of course not every is the best of the best. I venture to say most live pros are 2/5NL players who make between 35k-70k per year? I find it funny how ppl say you need to play 5/10NL minimum to be a live pro because i spoke to someone who said 2/5NL is where most pros are. Even when i hear 10 20nl is where the real pros play... sure... but what games run 10 20nl on daily basis. Just Bellagio... and there are what 2 tables max during the weekday and majority 1 table?


Is there anyone that has played live for 5 plus years and still enjoy it?


Another question i have is are there many of you guys who been working for many years and regret not giving poker a full time shot?


I also read blogs from ppl who worked in the corporate world and quit their job because it sucked the life outof them to play live poker. However, it seems like even though sometimes they hate it when they are losing... most of their blogs seem to say well there is still no way they would go back and get a real job even though poker is frustrating to them. Most of these guys had jobs for 2-3 years and quit. Is there a reason these ppl who don't like poker that much still won't quit it to go and find a regular job.

I don't play cash, so I can't speak to that. But if someone is playing $500 tournaments, just a few big cashes could probably put someone in the 100K neighborhood.

Also, I think that 100K is a very doable number for a good $100 online tournament player who is putting in a lot of volume by multitabling.

Limons thread is probably the best and most informative thread on this site. He has also made more from live poker than most players on this site.
However he is wrong about 100k being the max people can make for several reasons.

1)there are players who are disciplined and dont have pit leaks etc who are better players than him in those games
2)he generally plays during the day- he is drastically underrating how much better games are at night especially on thurs-sat.
3)Personally i could never play 2000 or so live hours in a year.But there are people who eat sleep and breathe poker and love every second in it who are excellent players. They make far more than 50 dollars an hour in 5/10 and way more than that in uncapped 10/20-10/25 games

.

n4rf, you posted the following:

"If you're young and your goal in life is to make 35-70k a year, you're in a world of **** once you have a lot more responsibilities down the road. It's too easy to get sucked into the freedom that poker gives, at a cost of potentially ruining your future."

---------------

This must be very dependent on where and how you live.

Sometime next year we will be moving to a 3-bedroom house with a full basement. It was recently appraised at 30K. I am building my bankroll, and not taking anything out, so I'm not currently making any contirbution to the family finances. My wife makes about 50K and we're putting money into savings and retirement. Money is tight, but that's mainly because we're devoting a significant share of her income to paying off some things and becoming completely debt free. We hope to be able to pay cash for the new house, or if not, to pay it off very quickly.

I'm in my 50s, and after ten years of playing poker only as a profitable sideline, this is going to be an adventure for both my wife and I. I don't know how/if/when we will get regulated poker in the United States*, so it's hard to estimate how much I'll make playing poker. But as I get rolling, if I make even 25K to next year to go with my wife's 50K, we're going to be in teriffic shape.

My wife wants to retire soon, and do some traveling. I want to keep playing as much poker as I can, which will be a perfect match for our lifestyle. I can grind on my destop between trips. If we're in a city with a casino, I can play a tournament while she's out shopping or whatever.

---------------

*My guess is that it will go like this:

1. Regulated online poker will be successful in Nevada in 2013.

2. By 2014 a few other states will be up and running, and talks between states about interstate compacts (based on the model of multi-state lotteries) will begin.

3. At that point, the federal government will decide that they want their piece of that tax money, and federal regulation will be a real possibility.

Much more money in weed, and it's taken 40 years to have it legalized in 2 states and there's far, far more people in support of weed. No one cares about poker.

Lottery vig is 50%+ as a standard. Don't get too upset if the vig is huge. Also, stakes will be small. Certainly NV will have it in 2013, anything beyond that is wishful thinking.

As for federal possibility, there's a better chance that the government responds to the positives of weed in CO and WA than poker in NV, NJ and CA. It will be a very slow process, and the game's profitability will slowly be eroded at with everyone trying to get a piece.

Stop thinking online poker is going to be part of your retirement plan.

your moving into a house appraised for 30k? is this a trailer park? I know other parts of the country are cheap, but thats pretty insane....the dumpier houses near me are 200k, and a nice one is around 400...

Id say to all the 20 somethings playing poker for income, if you're not making 100k/yr then abandon it.....games are going to get harder, and if this is all your doing with yourself your headed for a dead end....if you make less then go learn another industry on the side that can supplement your income.....if you must just play poker and not learn other industries, then at the very least master NL(win at the highest spread NL game in the area), and learn to be good at another game.....keep your options open so you have a shot at doing this for the long run

I'm sure if a master 5/10 player could make 150k/yr or maybe a little more but that would require someone who
1.never tilts
2.grinds 40 hours a week minimum
3.is an expert
4.is always playing their a game

all the significant winners have some piece of this, but rare to see it all.....also a lot of times when someone has all these qualities, they think they're wasting their time and move on to something better.

all the 2/5 "pros" are prob 20 somethings that live at home or have an apartment with a friend - that's not what reality is. reality is having a mortgage, bills, health care, child care, etc that are not shared with your buddy......

whatever you do you need passion....maybe you dont enjoy your work everyday, but overall you look forward to things......if you dont have passion in whatever your doing then quit it and find passion - its the only way to maximize your human potential

This thread continues to be lost somewhere in outer space. 50k a year isn't enough money? How? Why? On what planet is that not enough?

The avg yearly income in 2011 for someone with a....

HS Diploma/GED - 33k
Bachelor's - 54k
Doctorate - 80k

Believe it or not...there are a whole buncha states between the east coast and the west coast and the cost of living in these 35 other states isn't freakin ridiculous. 50k is MORE than enough money.

More than enough money for what? If you have a mortgage, kids, health insurance co-pays, and are saving for retirement & college -- and lets not forget taxes, both income and property -- $50k doesn't go very far.

If you're single and renting, sure. $50k is quite livable in many areas of the country.

The planet USA where the dollars value continues to become worth less and less. There aren't very many cities between the 2 coasts that run 2/5+ every day where a grinder can make 50k+/yr. Also in the few cities that do 5/10 certainly doesn't run every day so 2/5 is basically the highest you can play regularly.

what? how are you defining reality?

And then the next year when they run bad and make -$20,000 their yearly average drops for 2 years all the down to $40k for the 2 years.

Binking a couple of MTT's for a 100k year does not equal making 100k per year. MTT variance is a joke.

I live 1.5 hours outside of NYC so real estate prices might be higher then in other parts of the country, but 50k is nothing where I live.....maybe if you live in the middle of Georgia with Honey boo boo 50k is a goldmine, but come on - whats that like 38k after taxes? a 200k mortgage costs about 1800/mo over here including taxes/insurance/etc - say you pay even 1200/mo for your mortgage - that alone is 15k......so now on your 23k, take out another 5k for food(atleast), 2k for car insurance/health insurance, you're down to 16k.....gas another 2500, so that leaves you with 13.5k.....now toss in utilities for the house, cell phone, thats probably another 5k so now your left with 8k.....I'm sure I'm missing even more but as you can see 50k barely allows you to survive.....enjoy relying on your spouses income to survive the rest of your life.

Post is about as good as it gets. The idea that people on this site who are 24 think that playing online is a career option is nothing but an utter joke. You guys seriously think you're going to be multitabling for a living two decades from now when you're a grown adult, (presumably) out on your own, and in your 40's?

That's what bankrolls are for. Johnathan Little lost $150K his first year of live poker. But he had a big enough bankroll from grinding SNGs to handle that, kept going, and was up over a million his second year. In fact, he had 2 losing years out of his first 5, and still did quite well, including a WPT bracelet.

there's some things being said that while true don't really tell the whole story

Some people are making it seem like the 2 options are either make 50k a year playing poker and have no money to pay for anything or get an amazing job and be a fat cat.
Most people who work in this country arent making a ton of money, so to make it seem like people can't make 50k a year and live ok off of it in most parts of the country is pretty silly.People also have different motivations in life. Some people are fine with 50k and living a simple life and some people want every fancy toy out there even if it means working 100 hours a week.

Granted as LD pointed out in many places 2/5 is the highest game running, but in most places in this country outside of LA that run constant games the cost of living is pretty low.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both having a normal job and playing poker.Again if you're single in most of the places that have poker the cost of health insurance isnt that bad. You dont get sick days etc but let's also not pretend like most 2/5 grinders live are paying taxes either even though they should. If you're not single, even if you had a typical crappy job you wouldnt be able to support a wife and kids by yourself anyway so it's not poker itself holding you back. If you have a wife and kids you will have more expenses- but if you have an average job in this country and your wife stays home for for 18+ years generating no income you have bigger problems than poker.And if she has a halfway decent job, well there is your health insurance. Again advantages and disadvantages. I mean yea if the options with kids are play poker for 50k or work for 200k you should be working, but those arent most people's options which is something a lot of people on here seem to be forgetting.

Whoever pointed out grinding online won't really be a viable option in 20 years is probably right for a variety of reasons. People should realize this won't necessarily be something most of us can do forever and in the event they have a great year or years realize it's probably not sustainable and try to save the bulk of your money. I've said this in other posts but I saw way too many idiots have a few low to mid 6 figure years in the glory days of poker who thought that would last forever who saved none of it. Instead they had some 5-10 k nights out clubbing, bought fancy cars and jewlery etc and shockingly are broke now and lucky if they have a roll for 1/2. Those people are idiots and if they won the lottery tomorrow would probably be broke in a few years (well maybe not power ball- it would even take antoine walker a good ten years to busto that win)

Live tournies are a joke. Im not saying there is no skill involved at all but they are a variance machine and anyone who thinks that it is a sustainable living is a fool. I mean good for Jonathan Little but live tournies are so volatile that if just a few hands play out differently his life is completely different. When you have enough people entering these things a few are going to run well and bink some big ones but it's not something you can plan for.If online poker is regulated in the US there will be a lot of online satelites and invariably a few people each year will win seats to big events they end up shipping. That doesnt make it a realistic sustainable living for anyone. The glory days of poker are over anyway so realistically how many people can work up a 150k roll in a short time that they can afford to lose when they run bad for a year? And even if you run well most of the people you see cashing big in these things are backed for a substantial amount and a lot of them are working off of makeup.

Then again that shouldnt be surprising. I've heard people discussing their rolls in 5/10 and 10/20 nl with their friends and its comical. Half of these guys don't even have 30k to their names and they sit in these games and have no idea what a downswing is like.They're either selling half of their action or playing way under rolled.Without fail every time I go to Vegas for a few months there will be a couple of guys who just run like god for a while-when you have a enough people playing some are going to run great, same as in tournies.Some are better players than me, some are worse and a lot of them have leaks (tilt pit game etc.) Most who arent from Vegas underestimate their expenses because they overestimate their win rates. I mean what's 5k-10k on a month of rooms at the Wynn when you just made 30k this month ?-as though that's sustainable. There are different kinds of run good- its not just sucking out or not getting sucked out. Sometimes people just flop 8 sets a day, hit every draw, fade every draw, get cooler hands etc for a month or 2. A monkey could run like that and win. I'll go back and see the same guys 6 months or a year later and most are playing 1/2 or short stacking 2/5. The smarter ones didnt piss their money away and didnt think they were gods gift to poker and are still beating 5/10 or have even moved up. If you wanna play live for a living I cant tell you what an advantage it is to be way over rolled for these games (and im not bragging at all- there are plenty of people in this world who if they woke up and had my net worth would blow their brains out.They are also probably smarter than me and without question harder working and more motivated than me.) If online comes back the first year or 2 will be a joke so take advantage of it and save your money and be smart with it. You don't want to be the guy playing 5/10 on a 30k roll or the guy being staked in the juicy games making money for other people. As much as big down swings suck now, it's nice knowing they won't effect my ability to eat, pay my bills, buy things I want to buy or the stakes I play.

The players who make the most money and survive the longest arent necessarily the best players.Once you have some basic understanding of poker things like money management,tilt control,game selection, being objective with your strengths and weaknesses are far more important than who is a better poker player in a vacuum.I've played with a lot of guys who are better players than me who in a vacuum would wipe the floor with me at poker who don't have 2 nickels to rub together.

exactly right on everything
i know i was in the right place at the right time when i started playing (and i still wish i played a year or 2 earlier)
If you're single and you don't waste a lot of money in most parts of the country its easy to live decently on 2000-2500 dollars a month when you're single with no kids (you may disgaree with me on the exact figure but just bear with me for a minute)
If you're trying to grind 1/2 lets say you had a 5 roll from working or whatever. Even if you make 3k a month you're a bad swing away from being busto. It's really hard to grow a roll that way. Without out any unexpected expenses if you ran decently and didnt have any vices it could still easily take you 5-10 years to build up a good enough roll to play 5/10 comfortably.

Now compare this to when i started out 8-9 years ago. For guys who werent around back then you have no idea what it was like. There was just free money everywhere. The players were all abysmal. Even besides the horror shows in poker the sites just gave out money like the had priniting presses. I didnt even know what the hell I was doing the first 4-5 months i played poker and I was still making 6-8 a month just from the bonuses that were a joke to clear. Money in neteller>new site play 500 hands or whatever get 200-500 dollars>neteller>new site lol. Hell bodog had a bottomless reload 20 % bonus for a while. That was an easy 6k a month on top of them having the greatest games in the world until 6 months later they made me get 6x points instead of 3x but still 3 k for nothing. They could have charged me 6k a month to play in those games instead (on top of whatever rake i was paying) and I couldnt have paid them fast enough.

This doesnt even include the casino bonuses and sportsbooks. Back then it was just sites giving you 500 dollars,1000 dollars a month for no reason. I mean yea every once in a while some rogue shop would steal your 300 dollar deposit or whatever, but who cares? I remember mansion giving out a free 1000 dollar bet to everyone. And the thing is if you had friends and family who let you use their names for this stuff you could do it many times.Sportsbook rollovers were one time to clear bonuses lol. And again keep in mind this was when neteller was still around.You could have never watched a sport in your life but if you understood 4th grade math it was impossible not to just print money.20-50% bonuses and back then you could scalp like crazy. You could get a +110 on both sides of a baseball game, deposit 1000 dollars on 2 sites, bet both sides of the same game, make a quick 400-1k off the deal, say thanks for the free money you idiots, cash out and have your money in half an hour.And often times a week later you would get an email from these same sites that basically said "hi player who just used us like a 2 dollar whore last week. Since you're such a valued customer (lol) we would like to see you back at our sportsbook. To get you to come back (and make one more bet before you cash out again with some more free money) we are offering you a free 50 pct reload bonus on deposits up to 1000 dollars (note: you must wager your deposit+bonus 1 time in order to be eligible to cashout the bonus money. But don't worry- even if you have never watched a baseball game in your life you can't **** this one up. The Mets are playing the Braves tonight and we have Al Leiter at +114, but over at some other book run by idiots just as dumb as us they have a similar offer and Tom Glavine is a +112 over there.)We hope to hear from you soon so you can take advantage of yet another foolish offer that will be sure to sink our business within the year"

When I think back on the free money being handed out back then it almost seems fake it was that ridiculous.

Take a guy who makes 3k a month with 2k in living expenses and compare him to a guy making 12k a month. The guy technically makes 4 times as much money, but living the same lifestyle he's about to save ten times the amount of money as the first guy, and he can play 5/10 live in a year if he wants to. Even if he spent double the amount of money, he is still saving 8 times more than the first guy.

If I was ten years younger I doubt I would even play poker seriously. To me having to grind a roll from 1/2 live sounds like torture.I wouldnt recommend it to anyone.