So nearly 60% of full-time workers have retirement. And my guess it is splits to something like 75% or great for the average college educated person (even higher for people with STEM degrees in all likelihood) and 50% or lower for the avg high school educated person. It's probably even lower than that for people without a high school degree.

That's the thing about America - we basically have two countries in one - one nation of people with generally strong benefits and pay because they are in a skilled position. We have a second nation, the working poor, who basically scrape by doing menial labor. You're comparing everything to the working poor, mine are geared towards the opportunities that exist in the world of people who have learned some sort of skilled trade.

I think you and I are still talking across different comparisons, and you're getting all worked up instead of seeing that we generally are agreeing with each other. Yes, there are lots of Americans with terrible benefit plans because they have high school degrees and just work menial jobs. You avoid being one of those by learning a real trade, which means making a sacrifice, go to college or whatever. Once you make that sacrifice you're generally in a good point if you pick a career that is in demand and you work hard to earn good grades.

interesting -i take the opposite approach and try not to pay much attention to daily results

interesting thread so far

i have been playing for a living both live and online for a little over 5 years. I have always enjoyed both online and live play. for the 12 months prior to black friday 90% of my action was online and now it is the opposite. i don't regret my decision to play poker for a living

much of this thread has been about the money/benefits aspect of poker vs job and while this is a reasonable way to weigh the decision to play poker it is only part of the story. i make less now as a poker player than i did 10 years ago in my old career and i am still very happy. back then i worked at least 70 hours/week and felt like a slave to my career. now i play as much or as little poker as i want and fully enjoy my freedom.

There are other professions fyi where you can work from home. I am a commercial real estate appraiser and work when and from where Iwant. I think the main benefit from poker is enjoying what you do and having fun, not necessarily the freedom.

Are you saying that people in their 50's and 60's working regular jobs because they can't afford to retire are not "getting through their later years with integrity"? What does this have to do with playing poker for a living?

You'll find a larger percentage of people at that age working jobs with little thought to retirement than poker pros at that age. Most guys that have been doing it as long as I have and are around my age are not living paycheck to paycheck. It's just not possible in this profession.

You're right that there are, in a sense, two countries here, or another way to put it would be to say that we have two economies. But I think it's also true that we have a lot of "takers" that are unmotivated. I knew a lot of very motivated people in my National Guard unit. Many of them joined at least partly for the college money.

The ultimate example of using the military to get ahead is a poor kid from Harlem who has stated that most of his childhood friends are in jail or dead. His name is Colin Powell. For any non-Americans who don't know that name, he became a 4-star general, National Security Advisor, and Secretary of State.

Of course, not everyone wants to join the military. Wal-Mart has been mentioned in this thread. You may not get a great job to start, but there is a lot of opportunity to advance it you want to take advantage of it. A lot of Wal-Mart executives and store managers started at a much lower position.

My parents told my me and my siblings that there wouldn't be money to send us to college. I went to community college, a class or two at a time when I got the money, and finally got two associate (two-year) degrees there at age 30. At one time I was in school, I had a full-time job, and I was in an elite National Guard unit that met once a week.

Call me old-fashioned, but I still think that the United States is the land or opportunity. The question is, whether it's success in poker or anything else, how badly do you want it, and what are you willing to do to get it?

I think I was asking a question about what todays players were planning for?

Yes, there are a ton of people working regular jobs at that age because they haven't planned for their later years. Being broke at that age isn't something that anyone would look forward too. By the time they figure it out, there's little they can do to have positive change on the situation other than to continue working.

I'm asking the group in this thread, that appear to be talking about decisions made about playing poker for a living, if they have plans for later in life.

If that somehow offends you, I apologize.. I asked some questions, you asked questions about my questions, I tried to answer them.

A few things here...

Virtually no one is learning any skilled trade in college or learning real life skills at 4 year universities...vocational schools, trade schools, technical schools, yes, students there are learning skilled trades that provide real value with REAL skills. But at 4 year universities they mostly aren't learning any real skills. And your essentially paying upwards of 100k for a piece of paper with absolutely zero intrinsic value, in countless worthless degrees like Public Administration, Minority Studies, Women's Studies, Art History, Marketing, and on and on and on.

Who provides real value for society??? A lawyer or a welder??? A welder makes/builds things, while a lawyer provides zero real value for society, and even worse... the lawyer makes artificially high incomes off the backs of honest goods producing Americans via inflation.

Also, you have to look at where things are headed economically as well. In 30 years the dollar is going to be a complete joke. All these benefits and perks aren't going to be worth the paper the contract is written on. 20-30 years from now it is going to be the farmers who are driving porsches and the former lawyers are going to be driving taxi's. And those blue collar working poor are going to be a lot better off than those who provide zero real value for society like a insurance agent, lawyer, etc.

I think you need to re-evaluate your definition of "educated" because I will tell you, just because you go to college or law school doesn't necessarily make you educated.

If one has derived most of their income in life from playing poker and wants to retire, why would they need a big nest egg in retirement? A lot of the people sitting at 8/16 and 20/40 game are fairly old and look retired and they are playing poker.

I'm sure plenty people of the people in this thread will never have to rely on social security even if they don't have legitimate retirement nest egg at age 60 or whatever.

I don't know about you guys but I'll probably be playing a decent amount of poker still in retirement.

This.

Poker pros are all felons that can't get a better job, duh.

Yes, but what about having to smell farts all day and putting your hands on those chips that were in the hands of people who just took a dump and then didn't wash their hands? That is nasty stuff, and it happens all of the time.

People might as well just play in the restroom. It is that disgusting.

Well, this is one of the most ridiculous things I've read all day. I've never heard the term "4-year universities," but it is interesting that you seem to think the aforementioned institutions only give out degrees in Art History, Political Studies etc. Arts/Science Faculties are definitely a part of public and private universities, but they aren't all the schools have to offer. Ever heard of an engineering degree? Architecture? Commerce? All of these degrees provide the student with specialized skills that are in high demand. Who provides real value to society: a welder or a lawyer? The answer, you dink, is both. Next time you get into some serious trouble with the law, let's see how quickly you tell the police you want to talk to your lawyer. Your notion that farmers and blue-collar workers are going to be the most important members of our society in 30 years is absurd, and ill-informed. As our society gets more technologically advanced, skilled workers will be increasingly sought after. That's not to say that farmers and blue-collar workers are not important, they certainly are, but to say every university degree is essentially worthless just highlights your ignorance with regards to education.

Also, the idea that lawyers on average make more money than blue-collar workers because of inflation is...just LOL. It's called supply and demand you dummy. It's the same reason plumbers have started to earn more in recent years, because the amount of plumbers (in my Canadian province at least) have decreased. Thus, demand goes up and so do their hourly wages.

You sound like a pissed-off dimwit who feels insecure around educated people. I know the type, man, and you definitely fit the bill.

If one has derived most of their income in life from playing poker and wants to retire, why would they need a big nest egg in retirement? A lot of the people sitting at 8/16 and 20/40 game are fairly old and look retired and they are playing poker.

I'll ask in a different way. Will you be self sustaining if and when you get tired of playing poker? Not saying today, tomorrow or in 10 years.. But if and when.

I'm sure plenty people of the people in this thread will never have to rely on social security even if they don't have legitimate retirement nest egg at age 60 or whatever.

I hope you're correct with this thought, but fear not..

I don't know about you guys but I'll probably be playing a decent amount of poker still in retirement.
I hope to be as well, but I don't play for a living nor have I ever. Just something I enjoy doing.

You should try an original thought, instead of just saying what Jim Rogers says. Your user name also gives you away as not having original thoughts. Jim Rogers, whom I like to watch and read about, often says that he loves commodities because if the government prints money they will go up, but if the economy gets worse, they will hold their value. You can't have it both ways.

Your taxi comments gave you away. You probably think that the United States is the next Zimbawbwe, too. The dollar is one of the great success stories in the history of the world. It is stronger than anything you can imagine. Just take a look at all of the whiney goofs who think they have money on Full Tilt. They want their DOLLARS.

Dollars can buy a lot more house than they could just a few years ago. Every product you could possibly have in your house can be had for less dollars than 5 years ago.

The United States dollar can simply solve all financial problems pretty much in the world. Show me one person or company in the whole world who is in financial trouble, and I can show you a person or company that could be out of trouble if they had DOLLARS.

A dollar is a great thing. You can order people around with just a few of them. Try to get someone to do something for you by giving them silver, or a bushel of wheat...lol.

Those guys are retired and donking away their money for fun. Why would you think I would want to sit around a poker table for hours a day when I'm 60? I don't really enjoy playing poker; it's a means to an end.

I'm sure you have never had an unoriginal thought, correct?

The dollar is quite possibly the biggest fraud in American history. The dollar is not real money, and you can't refute this.

I get things for giving people silver. I give my hair stylist a silver oz when I get a haircut. She loves it. You just need to educate people that the almighty "dry powder" dollar holds none of the characteristics of what real money holds, and that it will inevitably failz.

Sure... dollars can maybe buy more house than maybe a few years ago, but not really since a vast majority of people who "buy" homes don't "own" their homes because they have big mortgages, right??? They have lots of debt on a home, big difference from buying and owning a home and even if you pay cash for a home then you are still just leasing it from the gov't (property taxes). Look at all the millions of foreclosures on homes in the country. People haven't bought anything when they "own" a home. Also, talk to me in 20 years and see if those dollars "buy" more of a house than they do now.

Didn't mean to derail so I'll get back on point with the discussion on benefits. People who put a lot of weight into their "benefits" for retirement and what not, are going to be very disapointed one day in the future. I would rather have the skill of being able to be a good poker player and relatively broke when I am 60 than to not have that skill and rely on any sort of 401k lolz or IRA lolzzz that will probably end up getting seized and nationalized before any current 30 year old comes within 10 years of retirement age. Or how about workers for the gov't who plan on relying on a pension?? Those are going to be slashed like no other and those people are going to be screwed.

Point being...I think it is in people best interests (especially talented poker players in this thread) to stay away from the herd mentality of thinking they will be secure just because they have a job with those cozy benefits. It is a false sense of security IMO.

As for me personally, I put 25% of my poker profits into silver coins that will be dollar cost averaged over a 15-20 year period whether I am playing full time or as a seriousish hobby. And I KNOW I will be far better off in retirement than someone who contributed the max to their silly 401k each and every year, like everyone else and their mother. Obviously there are many other things people can invest in other than silver, my point is that people shouldn't be lulled into the false sense of security of your typical benefits, and shouldn't rely on them. And I think talented poker players are in MUCH greater position to set themselves up for retirement than your average joe.

You sound like the one who is pissed off with all the childish name calling... "dummy" "dink" dimwit" lol

But anyways... you are wrong. Lawyers do not provide any real value for society, and they make artificially high incomes for the "work" that they do. I don't think you know what "real value" means. Because lawyers, insurance agents, etc, certainly don't provide any real value.

Answer me this... what REAL skill does a lawyer or insurance agent have that they perform at their job?

Sure there are obviously a handful of worthwhile degrees like the ones you mentioned engineering and such. But even then they aren't worth upwards of 100k. And all the worthless ones like I mentioned plus a bunch more certainly aren't even worth the cost of the paper the degree is written on. I have a degree from the University of Arizona, which is pretty much a joke school where I learned basically nothing. Everyone is learning mostly the same useless crap at all these colleges. Two years of gen eds that don't teach you anything of value and most degrees that don't teach you anything of value. I remember being in a weather and climate gen ed class (among many other worthless classes, and I'm thinking to myself WTF am I in this for and how is this benefitting me? Whether one is educated or not doesn't really have anything to do with the fact that you got a piece of paper with zero intrinsic value from some scam college that got you to fork over 100k for it


Also, people coming out of college can't find work because most of them don't have any real skills. Contrast that to kids who went to tech schools, vocational schools, trade schools, and they have no problem finding work and making nice salaries because they do provide real value and in specialized ways like you mentioned.

Good post. In the end, it's all about what you want. Most who have pursued poker professionally have done so because of the degree of freedom it entails. For me personally, I am enthralled by the idea that I could one day support myself by playing. I love poker, love everything about it, but I admit that sometimes I wonder if being a "professional" would be fulfilling to me.

Lol@ a housing bubble meaning the dollar is strong and the us keeps printing money at a rapid pace so gl getting goods you need for the same price in five or ten years as you do today


Of course dollars are more valuable than full tilt money but that doesn't prove your point abut the dollar being strong at all it just means they are worth more than something which may be worth absolutely nothing

Us players can't even play on full tilt anymore so wtf good is full tilt money other than to cash it out

I mean you might as well say dollars are strong bc people who have bounced checks written to them would prefer dollars to the bounced checks

Hell the most worthless currency in the world is worth more than full tilt money-whats your point?

Yeah I forgot to mention this in my reply to him. People want Full Tilt dollars, so the dollar is obviously so strong! what am IDIOT lol

Maybe I stepped over the line with the name calling. Your ignorance on this issue ignited a fury deep inside me, that's all.

Your whole post is rampant with generalizations and over-simplifications. Let me start with a few:

-Your assertion that every university degree costs roughly $100, 000 is false. In many instances, it costs less than half of this to get a degree from a decent public institution in the United States. Moreover, you can get a respectable degree from a Canadian university for $35, 000-$45, 000. Plenty affordable if a student takes it upon him/herself to get a summer job and part-time position during the school year

-You seem smitten by your own college experience. Just because you took a meaningless program at a poor school doesn't mean all schools are terrible. As previously noted, many schools provide a vast array of programs that can help students acquire skills/knowledge that are in high demand in the work force (see: engineering, nursing, etc.). If someone gets a degree in Architecture, guess what? They provide real value to society. Who do you think designs our schools, recreation complexes, and so on? Same goes for engineers. Who do you think is designing the bridges we drive over to get to work everyday? Thus, a degree in a meaningful field DOES, in fact, have real value.

-Also, your notion that lawyers provide no real value to our society is silly. We are bound by man-made laws in this world, thus, it serves that there should be people capable of helping us understand them. Imagine if you were wrongfully convicted of murder. You would likely hope for a fair trial to prove that you did not commit the crime, no? It would probably be helpful to acquire the services of someone who has a deep and thorough understanding of the laws of the land, right? So, why are lawyers valuable in our society? BECAUSE THEY POSSESS A DEEP UNDERSTANDING OF THE LAWS WHICH WE ARE BOUND BY. I'm shocked that you think craftsmen/farmers are the only people with real skills. Your concept of skills is clearly skewed.

Wow silver man...do you live in a shack in the woods because it kind of sounds like you just are not part of normal society.

Firstly, All currency is made up. The dollar is paper. Silver...is just a hunk of metal with no intrinsic value either. People have faith in these things in order to live in a society without bartering for everything.

Secondly, All of your points are just so convoluted and bizarre. How can you say lawyers provide no real value? Do you feel the same way about doctors since they don't give you anything physical you can hold like a welder can? Highly skilled professionals provide, like lawyers, provide services that are necessary whether you like it or not.

To your notion that university is a scam...Most of the skills you learn in a university are really how to balance your time with study, work, play...how to socialize and network with your cohorts, all the while gaining academic knowledge that can hopefully be used in your career. I agree that you don't use nearly all the things You learn in class at university but its much more than just the classroom.

LOL at silver not having any intrinsic value. Do you know how many applications silver is used in? THOUSANDS. And silver IS real money. It has ALL the characteristics of money...uniformity, scarcity, unit of account, long history of acceptance, divisibility, durable. All characteristics the crumply dollar does not possess.

As far as all the things you listed that you gain in college. You learning meaningless information, balancing your time, and playing should cost upwards of 100k? Nonsense.

I'm not saying college is completely useless, but not everyone needs it, like we are brainwashed into thinking. Not even 30 years ago people were taking out mortgage sized loans on their homes, now kids are taking out mortgage sized loans on their education with no promise of a job afterwards. If you don't think it is a scam go look up the figures on the debt owed since the inception of federal student loan program in 1965. The figures are like 1.3 trillion loaned out and 800 billion still outstanding. Forget the housing collapse, the education scam would have been enough to take us into a recession, and the college bubble is going to burst soon enough. The only people benefitting and getting rich from the college scam are banks, corporations and politicians...who have created and continue to create debt slaves for life. If all Stafford student loans were forgiven today...tomorrow tuition prices would plummet and the best universities would offer the best education at the cheapest price, just like in a real free market. Why control costs when most of these kids aren't paying for their tuition anyway, and get loans from the gov't like candy? It's actually criminal. LOTS of kids don't value the education because they don't work for it. You see the handful of kids on campus who value it and it is mostly those who are paying as they go. And a lot of the rest go through the motions, regurgitate info and then go party.

Many MANY kids would be better off graduating high school and getting an entry level position in a field that interests them and he will be in much better shape than the average college grad when he graduates having 4-5 years of work experience, probably having moved up, saved money, and no college loan that he has to be a slave to for the rest of his life. Just to make the rich richer. Also, it is always funny to see these college kids out there who hate the rich and want a "free education," when it is those exact same brainless college kids that are making the elite they despise so much richer! lol

You mention 2 or 3 useful degrees. And you are right, they are useful. But your average college kid isn't going into engineering. They are getting degrees in useless majors that provide zero real skills for a rip off price tag of 30k or 50k or 75k or higher in some cases.

The reason our country is in decline is because we have countless able bodied individuals wanting to be lawyers, insurance agents, marketers and sit on their butt all day while making lots of money in a lot of cases. I'm not saying the lawyer profession should go away, but we have FAR too many people wanting to be one. And the only way they make a lot of money is off the backs off the goods producers where the wealth in transferred to them via inflation. Lawyers might be able to help a couple people get out of a murder conviction, but they don't possess any real tangible skills that they use at their job, and with so many of them, and insurance agents and many other jobs, it is a huge drain on the system.

If you average american is making what? 50k a year? What is that? 150$ a day? That is the equivalent of 5 ounces of silver for a day's wage for probably sitting on their butt. That flies in the face of thousands of years of history and in much of the world today of what someone should be making, especially when many Americans aren't producing anything of real value. It takes some sweatshop or rice paddy worker in China 15 days or so of work to acquire just 1 oz of silver. And those people are producing things obviously since everything we buy is from China. There is going to be a maaajor shift in the quality of life of most Americans soon enough, it just isn't sustainable especially with many countries coming up like India and China. They won't need us soon. We only have 2% of high school grads going to vocational, tech, and trade schools. This is a huge problem for America, because lots of kids want to go to a regular college and get a worthless degree in many cases.