This is a joke, right? Especially among the young internet pros? Many of them just quit college b/c the money was so good playing poker. When you're making $75k + (or higher for the real pros) at 22, what's the point of college?

He's most likely not young at all, which was implied in his earlier posts. Otherwise he's overpaying tremendously. Health insurance for a single 20-30 year old male isn't $400 a month, especially if you have a catastrophic care only policy, it should be in the tens of dollars a month.

Not having a catastrophic care policy in the US is mega -EV if you have any savings and any meaningful income.

They exist for basically every skilled worker in the US. But they are much, much less valuable/limited for unskilled labor like the checker at a grocery store or the McDonald's cashier.

You definitely need to adjust for the time it takes to get to $50 an hour, including the opportunity cost of paying for and attending college.

But there aren't many pros making $50 an hour live, especially over 40 hours a week/52 weeks a year. Certainly not pros below 5/10 unless they are in sick or uncapped games.

Lots of salaried folks making $75,000 are really making about $50/hr when you consider benefits (including paid time off). It doesn't take that long to make $75,000 in many skilled fields, it's pretty easily obtainable in your 20's if you're willing to do the work to get there (go to a good school, pick a good major, keep your grades up, etc.)

Now easy, go easy there...

Todd Terry quit his job as a criminal defense attorney in NYC to play poker. Barry Greenstein left poker to work at Symantec before going back to poker full time. Phil Laak was a stock trader on Wall Street. Viffer helped start up an online ticket broker. Ike and Brian Hasting have Ivy League degrees. CTS has an econ degree from Georgetown, etc. You don't think they have legit, non-poker career options?

Something like this IMO.

In my experience people aren't factoring in everything when making this comparison between poker and working. They tend to not consider that merely making more than your current expenses in poker may keep you afloat but doesn't allow you to actually grow your bankroll much, which is imperative for providing a financial cushion and safety net. If someone is just making slightly more than to cover their living expenses and their bankroll isn't constantly growing, then they aren't positioning themselves to potentially move up in stakes, or to invest money to potentially move onto something else besides poker. Unless someone intends to be playing poker for the rest of their life (which most players don't aspire to), then they need to be making a lot more than living expenses so they have something to propel them forward. But obviously in addition to that they want to be comfortable for any unexpected lifestyle changes (relocation, getting older, marriage, kids, etc).

Also since playing poker for a living is inherently more risky with deterioration of games as we've seen being an issue and games progressively getting harder, this puts downward pressure on the longer term earning potential for most pros. Then when you start to account for risk of burnout over the years and having a blank resume to enter back into the workforce it necessitates even more success in poker to warrant choosing it over working. Yes, there's plenty of value in the freedom aspect (especially for online players), but that still doesn't offset the need for a very large and growing bankroll, or offset the other risks in and of itself.

I swear i live in a different world....

I think that we're comparing the wrong things here. Everyone talks about making X$/h at poker vS X$/h+benefits at a normal job. Truth is, it's not about the money. I mean to a certain extent, of course. But really, money is only to satisfy our needs. These needs vary from one person to the other, which makes it impossible to give an absolute answer to the question "which one is better?".

The average salary (in Canada) is about 35-40k/yr before taxes. Of course some people end up getting 100k/yr+ jobs, but what percentage? Keep in mind that the government rapes you for half of it. So most ppl work these ****ty, depressing, unfulfilling job to live from paycheck to paycheck, maybe go on vacation once a year because that's all they an afford. What I think most ppl in this thread are missing is the value of freedom.

Of course other factors come into the equation that vary from one country/province/state to the other. But the real question is, what do you NEED? And how much is Freedom worth to you?

Personally, 30k/yr in poker > 50k/yr working for someone else. Again this is based on my particular set of circumstances.

But if you need a brand new Benz and a 7000sq.ft. House, maybe mid-stakes poker isn't gonna be enough to keep you satisfied.

Eveidently, playing 1/2 is not gonna be enough to pay for most people's needs (at least on a long-term basis) and be able to put money aside for retirement or whatever. So if one is not moving up after a few years, he might have to reconsider.

But we should be comparing lifestyles as opposed to numbers.

Sorry for any typos, I'm on my iPhone.

-P

Well "pro" is a widely used term, but making 50/hr at 5/10 or above isn't that hard.....I find it hard to believe those in their 20s can make 75k/yr + benefits that results in 50/hr or more, but I don't have the life experience to argue that one

Question for the average poker professional, that lives off playing revenue and is not relying on other people or funds for survival.

What's the long range plan for retirement? I understand you can play forever, but you may not be profitable for ever.

Do you have a plan in place for later in life? If so, is that plan working out for the players closer to 50?

I would imagine the younger players don't really think much about that today, but will when they are closing in on "the golden years"..

I don't disagree on point 1, but what % of players are actually doing that? And how many places can you live and make that at poker in the US? Are there even ten cities with 5/10 running consistently? That's a plan for a very small % of players.

There's lots of people in their 20's making 75k+. Most of them spent their early 20's in school though to learn whatever skill they needed for their job. I agree there are probably very few people in their 20's making 75k+ who have only a high school education.

The # of 28 year olds making $75,000= at a job >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the number of poker players making $100,000+ a year of cash.

The answer's pretty simple, live below your means. Put some of your profits in an IRA or something like that every year. Buy some investments with other profits. It's not hard to do, you just need the wherewithal to actually commit to saving. Lots of working people don't plan very well for retirement, either, they spend everything they make and take on tons of debt.

The better question for the average 20 something is, do you really plan to do this for 40 years? How do you expect to have a family with this lifestyle and level of income/benefits?

I agree there's alot making 75k a year, but very little making 50/hr....of course the # of 28 year olds making 75k is greater then people making 100k a year in live poker.

...said it all...

Someone making 75k is basically making $50 an hour all-in if they have decent benefits/PTO unless they are working 50+ hours a week.

$75,000 is nearly $40 an hour over a standard 2,080 hour work year (40 a week), and that's without the value of retirement, OASDI/unemployment taxes, health care, paid time off, and any other benefits you have (LTD, life insurance, dental insurance, etc.).

I work for a benefits consultant, I know the average Fortune 1000 employee's benefits package is worth 30%-40% of cash pay at that pay level.

I played for a number of years professionally, and I do not regret the choice.

I only say that because I learned to take more from the game than just money. I learned essentially how to run a business, networking, money management, time management, expenses, frivolous items, etc...

If you go into it, just wanting to make money, and thinking that you will crush the games, you shouldn't try. You have to be able to set goals, figure out how to scribe them, understand that there are some variables out of your control, and plan for at least triple what you think it will take.

I made a choice to get out of the professional side, and focus more on recreation, because it is very difficult to maintain a healthy relationship unless they share the same schedule as you.

Would I take it back? Absolutely not. I had an absolute blast. But again, I was also able to take a lot of life skills away from the game. Very very few people could do it indefinitely, and I would question if they did, the family and marital strife it caused.

Wow, if there is one thing I've learned from this thread, it's how lucky I am to have been educated in Canada. The United States clearly has a number of the premier universities in the world, with the likes of Harvard, Yale, Columbia etc. However, the price of post-secondary education is enough to make me sick to my stomach. So many of the Americans on this thread seem to be burdened by 100k+ college debts. That **** would cripple the morale of anyone, I don't care who you are.

I've been fortunate enough to attend one of the best universities in Canada for the last two years, at a cost of less than $15, 000 a year ($7,500 tuition/~$7,500 rent/living expenses). This means that with a full-time summer job and a modest scholarship, I can pretty much end each year without being in debt. So, even if my opportunities coming out of college don't present themselves right away, I don't have to worry about finding work immediately so I can start paying of my creditors.

Something has to be done to fix the system in the US, 'cause that **** just isn't right.

You don't need to go to Harvard to get a good job in the states. 99% of kids couldn't even get in there anyway. Unless you are the cream of the crop or have someone else paying for your college, the average US student is way better off going to a public college and picking a good major, especially if you also plan to go to grad school. Plus, if you're really poor, you probably should be starting off at community college anyway to save money.

It's not like companies are only hiring from Yale, they're hiring from Illinois, Florida, Penn State, etc.

The cost of public school post-grad education is generally in the ballpark of what you're paying unless you're in a high cost of living area (I'm ignoring scholarships here). Most states still have tuition at or under $10,000 and living expenses in the dorms of under $10,000 a year.

I'm not saying it's perfectly easy or something like that, but almost anyone with $100,000 of undergrad debt has made choices that made their college experience so expensive. Most people could get a degree for under $50,000, especially if they are willing to sacrifice and have a part-time job or live at home. Work 500 hours at $10 an hour (pretty low IMO, you could do better waiting tables) and you can keep your debt load quite manageable. But lots of 18-22 year olds don't want to make those sacrifices.

Certainly not saying the system is good, but let's not pretend you have to take on $100,000 of debt to get a decent job in the states.

I love this answer.

Do low to mid stakes players think of retirement or investments? Also how do they get loans for housing, or do they just pay rent until they get lucky or reach higher stakes?

Well If they claim their winnings which I'm sure 99.99% of all live cash game grinder scrubs don't.. they could get a loan.

I'm planning just that. However I am just at the beginning, building the roll. I have goals, and time frames, and I know it will take a LOT of hard work. But after re-reading my post I feel even more determined. Even if I fail, at least I will have tried. Trying in itself is succeeding. After I wiki'd 'Buck' I think you're right, it does tie in pretty well.

I get your point. There is a young man that plays in our local charity room donkaments who says he makes about minimum wage doing that, which is fine with him, because "I don't have to work at McDonalds". You could say that he makes a living at it and I don't, even though he makes less playing poker than I do.

I did well enough as a recreational SNG player player that we would take out a hundred or so to pay a bill or two on a regular basis. The biggest bankroll I ever had for more than a week was $228.

Clearly that won't work if poker is my profession. Bankroll building comes before paying the bills. So if you don't think I'm making a living until I take some money out of my bankroll and put it in our joint bank account, I won't quibble with that defintion.

This reminds me of a thought/joke I had recently. I was wondering what prisoners do with all of their credit card bills, car payments, utility bills, bank accounts, etc.

The answer is that 99 out of 100 are not connected to society in that way. There are no credit cards, cable company bills, car payments, etc. Poker players are a notch or two above that, of course, but they are far below normal people who actually are involved in society, don't go broke all of the time, don't owe money to every living human, etc.

The best part is that even good poker players are too dumb to even figure out a way to tell people what they do. Many threads were started on this forum from people who had sometimes in the solid six figures, and were making that much per year, who couldn't quite figure out what to tell people. They were too ashamed.

The answer is simple. If you have that much money from poker just call yourself an investor or businessman. It would be a good idea to have some shares in some publicly traded companies anyways, so buy yourself a chunk of stock, and then tell people that is what you do. That is assuming that you don't want to say poker player.

It just shows you how stupid some of these people are. Here they were with tons of money, and they couldn't even figure out how to navigate through conversations.

There are fun ways to say , as well. Like, "I am an independent consultant for an international concern". Or simply, "a professional man of leisure".

The bottom line is that the bloom has long been off the rose called poker. It had a huge run. It won't be legalized in your lifetime in the United States (on a Federal level).

Party over.