These modified smartphone devices for infrared ink marked deck cheating existed as early as about 15 years ago, and has allegedly been used in the high limit room at the Bellagio. (Documented on this forum, I think the poker room manager name involved was Dalton or similar?)

The range is not limited to 1m, and the devices are not limited to a smartphone. Many additional devices can be purchased including the table itself, neckties, shirts, lamps, ceiling fan, just to name a few.

Search Google and YouTube for CVK350

Sometimes it can be difficult to know who is missing whose sarcasm (Me? You?) so I'll speak plainly. I was being sarcastic. I thought your first post was funny in an absurd way. I'd argue that whether cheating occurred at this particular game in the way the OP said is still TBD. But to brush it off as quickly as you did as a nonsense conspiracy? That makes no sense. The alleged form of cheating has been used many, many times in underground games and to a lesser extent in casinos. It is common enough that less proof is needed to substantiate an allegation. And please don't make arguments that are based on the law. Our lot as poker players is that this dispute will be settled here, on this forum. This won't see the inside of a courtroom in a hundred years. That sucks but that is what we accept when we play in underground games and sometimes when we play in a casino (i.e. courts usually don't give a crap what goes on in a casino either).

In terms of whether this post should be allowed given the evidence presented so far I would leave to the twoplustwo admins. Each bulletin board would have their own standards and I'm sure a site in operation as long as this one has a policy for how to handle situations like this.





What??? Are you trolling? Or joking? Or just actively trying to destroy any credibility you might have had? "Some" or "most" people consider use of barcode scanner devices cheating? I'm pretty sure everyone except sociopaths would consider that cheating. FFS, the name of the sites that sell the device is called "poker cheat"!!

I feel like I ask for one of these every year for Christmas but the girlfriend has never gone for it. She looks at it as a stupid black box that shuffles the cards and thinks I’m crazy about even considering buying one when a used one runs around 5k lol.

I wasn't saying the conversation wasn't above board. I was saying most feel cheating isn't above board. Some people are fine with the the old adage that "a fool and his money are soon parted - so I may as well help him part with it..."

The convo is good for the tin foil hat crew.

I was simply pointing out not all people have an issue with cheating. That is why they do it...

Of course I do not condone it. But there are thousands upon thousands of dishonest people out there.

The conversation is partially about cheating and what methods are being used so we can recognize it and avoid it if possible. Nobody here is advocating doing it. 99% of players have no use for cheaters.

Indeed, but not much to worry about as long as the dealer is cutting the deck when it comes out.

I understand the reliance you place on a cut before actual dealing.

However, think the action through.

For example, even if the only edge is knowing what 8 cards follow the deuce of spades, should that deuce be part of the flop, or even worse, a card dealt to the cheater, that information could have a real value .... especially if the insider with knowledge is whomever receives the designated deuce as his first or second second down card.

If a deck is stacked, with X card as the "starting point", I think there is a lot of info provided to a potential cheater. Think of the edge of just knowing whether any given opponent cannot have two cards matching some flush draw on a given board ? .... To make it less obvious, the rest of the deck could be left to a randomized shuffle..... and the massive stacking done for only 1/2 of the deals. (The "signal" of non-stacked random hands could be simple as well.)

Recalled a past thread about this, did a search, and this came up...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/55...+room+cheating

Interesting...

When I made my post about the Shuffle Masters being able to sort the deck, I should have mentioned that one of the casinos I play in southern California does NOT cut the deck. The Seven Mile Casino does not have the dealer cut the deck out of the shuffle machine. I asked management why and I was told because it considerably speeds up the game with more hands played (more rake for house). The not cutting the deck out of the shuffle machine trend could easily catch on.

fwiw even a mediocre mechanic can consistently cut exactly x cards off the top of the deck. Given this and the lengths people go to cheat, I would not assume cutting eliminates cheating. Plus, what gzesh wrote.

Not cutting the deck does not considerably speed up the game. How long does it take, two seconds? Compared with a second to put the deck on top of the cut card even if the dealer doesn't cut. The players should insist they cut the deck.

In some jurisdictions not cutting the deck may not be an option. It may be mandated by the state's gambling control board.

watch the defcon youtube video, makes seat #1 look very guilty of this scam.

You made a funny. Poker players insisting stuff to casino corporations works so well. Maybe poker players should insist the rake at poker be lowered?

I listed an actual California casino that does not cut the cards out of a shuffle machine. And I listed the actual thinking from management as to why.

If players continually complain about the deck not being cut cardroom management will get tired of hearing about it. Many rule changes made in cardrooms are done because of player input. Also, the casino corporation may be unaware of the policy. The decision may have been made by the cardroom manager and he/she will be the one to decide to change it. But if the players don't complain, why should management change?

The rake is a different issue, cardroom management knows the players would like to pay less, but that will effect their bottom line in a significant way. And yes, I know you were talking about an actual casino with an actual response from management. That doesn't mean their view has merit or that they can't be talked into a better policy.

In a situation like this I would normally recommend talking to management on the side and explaining why they should cut the decks, and encourage other regulars to do the same. But under the circumstances, cardroom management might take offense because the implication is that their shuffling machines can be rigged, which implies possible dishonesty on their part (although an argument stressing "appearances" might work). So in this case, players continually complaining without offering a logical explanation would probably be more effective. Make a pain in the butt out of yourselves.

On second thought, good luck on getting pokers players to stick together on anything. It's not the nature of the beast.

I did talk to management, that is why I was able to quote their view in my post.

Flipping the topic back to the shuffle machine itself, I'll recall how I know that a single shuffle machine can then tell another shuffle machine how to sort the cards. A couple of years ago when I still lived in Las Vegas, I was at The Orleans poker room one late night. I was chatting with a poker dealer down at the far end of the room that is usually empty except when they are busy or there is a tournament. He told me he could put a deck of cards in the shuffle machine at the table we were sitting at and have it shuffle (or stay in the order he put it into the machine) and then put different deck of cards in the poker shuffle machine on the next table over and tinker with the settings on both shuffle machines and have the first shuffle machine tell the second shuffle machine to sort the cards in the same exact order. He told me he wasn't allowed to do it, but he would if I wanted to see, I said dude don't get me kicked out of here. My second thought as we were talking and I was looking at him and actually just over his head, I could see the screen listing the bad beat jackpot at about $80,000 and I started thinking someone is going to start using linked shuffle machines to set a deck to hit bad beat jackpots.

without even measuring post cut one can become very accurate at eyeing how many cards are in a clump.

Many many years ago I put a lot of work into blackjack science, shuffle tracking, key card sequencing, some very advanced techniques that combine these methods along with counting.

With lots practice in eyeing up a clump of cards it's pretty easy to become good enough to be off by half a card on average over a decent sample size, which is quite accurate. All of this in just one quick glance.

My point, cut is irrelevant when you are practiced enough.

Whoa I am having flashbacks of Arnold Synder's Blackjack Forum booklets. If you counted cards at blackjack in Atlantic City in the 1990's, then we probably crossed paths. Dang I wonder if I still have all of that stuff from Arnold Synder, Stanford Wong and Don Schlesinger.

I just dont think this is a real thing. I'd be very interested if someone could actually validate that this can be done. Maybe I just have too much faith in those deckmates when i shouldn't. The other reason I doubt that is possible is because vegas card rooms don't own these machines and I highly doubt ShuffleMaster would open themselves up to liability on compromised machines as they dont have any skin in the game as they just lease them to the casino. Not to mention that they would probably be barred by the NGC if any evidence of this was found out which would most likely put them out of business. Are you sure that this dealer wasn't just messing with you? I've heard some dealers say some pretty outlandish stuff.

I'll see if I can Google search anywhere from a site that confirms the ability to link shuffle machines. Anyone else with some search powers look too. At least two or three other posters in this thread have at the very least heard of the ability to link shuffle machines.

Edit: a quick search is finding a lot of detailed info only available for renters of the machines, but I'll continue to look and hope some of you search whiz guys will too.

Seems like the main problem comes from marked cards, barcode or invisible ink.

IMO do not allow any foreign objects to be placed on the table (maybe a card protector coin - no other type of protector) and that is it. No eating at the table (to avoid grease marking cards...)

Only use cards of specific brands and a fresh pack at beginning of each game. Have a pair of invisible ink glasses on hand (multiple if there are variations of this type of cheating) to inspect the cards if anything suspicious happens. Have a UV light bulb wand on hand. For the extra paranoid you could use a bug / camera detector like this one (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PRFVXP7)

I think it would also be good if card manufacturers gave their decks a serial number (print it on the back of cards too in the white edge area in a light color font so it can be seen up close - of course making sure the spacing is exact in case someone can identify a card that way) and work with distributors to get the deck serial number printed on the receipt.

This may seem really paranoid but with cheating happening more often or at least more people getting caught / becoming aware of cheating and how to cheat, I think it's starting to become necessary to implement some basic game security. If anyone protests just tell them you're trying to make sure the game is on the up and up & if they don't like it they can leave. Who wouldn't want the game they are playing in to be on the up and up?

I once played a hand at Hollywood St Louis that I am still suspicious about. A guy called my 4b with 62o (and a shortstack) and flopped a straight vs my AA. Was he just a fish? Probably, but something about that hand just didn't feel right. He seemed to be winning some other hands also but don't remember the details on those. If anyone else has had something happen there they feel suspicious about, pm me and I'll share the details on that hand.

Another idea for those not opposed to ditching the chips might be to just have people use their tablet or phone, still playing in person on Pokerstars Home Games (no laptops to avoid HUDs). The game is much faster this way too and less cumbersome.

Hell, even in this scene from a 2007 movie, the players had to put their phones in a basket away from the table. And that was when Blackberries were the thing, let alone the smartphones of today.



Oh, and yes, that is indeed Rounders writer Brian Koppelman as the chatty poker player.

Movies are usually very very stupid when it comes to poker (Casino Royale) but on that point they were way ahead of the curve.

Movies are lacking when it comes to most endeavors. For one, things are usually too complicated for most audiences to understand. For another, the facts are usually too boring for anyone to care. So screenwriters and directors dumb down some details and embellish others to make the movie watchable. In the end, a movie is usually more on some human level so the audience can relate, with some details of the endeavors of the characters as an aside to provide variety.