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TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker

07-05-2017 , 11:00 AM
Submitted mine tonight - main points I covered were that I'm a recreational player and if we're only left with brick and mortar casinos, the community will be harmed through much higher rakes. Some people will also be forced to play much higher stakes than they would have online, with micro stakes no longer being an option. Then highlighted that moving to a licensing and regulation model like the one currently in existence for online sports betting would be the best way forward in terms of harm minimisation and benefit to the community through increased tax revenue etc.

Hope it helps.
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-05-2017 , 01:11 PM
Good work guys lets get those submissions in. I'll be submitting mine tomorrow after doing a spelling/grammar check etc.

Re youtube video i'd assume talk them through whats required eg address the criteria to be discussed in submissions as well as telling them how to submit it and emphasising it's about their personal thoughts and experiences as well as that it has to be done by July 21 and that this is their last chance to have their say that online poker should be legal and regulated in Australia rather than banned and we have a real chance to win as a substantial majority of parliament backed this inquiry happening, but we need them to now agree with our position
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-06-2017 , 01:46 AM
I have some good news guys. It seems Ignition have expanded to Australia.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3010 using Tapatalk
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-06-2017 , 01:49 AM
It's already been mentioned above somewhere


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TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-06-2017 , 02:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by f1tz
I have some good news guys. It seems Ignition have expanded to Australia.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3010 using Tapatalk
haha yea by far the best news this thread has ever seen and noone blinks
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-06-2017 , 03:20 AM
Nah, I agree with Joey, keep this thread focused on the real fight (not ignition).
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-06-2017 , 04:21 AM
Good news re: ignition but lets keep the focus on submissions until the deadline has passed there is no reason we shouldn't have 100+ submissions from Australian poker players by July 21.

Everyone make sure you ask three friends to make a submission and make one yourself if you are reading the thread

Good to see the title updated of the thread too. I'll be putting my submission in tonight after doing some spelling/grammar checks.
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-06-2017 , 05:14 AM
Can someone do mine for me I will pay $100 AUD
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-06-2017 , 07:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jakedamus
Can someone do mine for me I will pay $100 AUD
Sold
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-07-2017 , 12:40 AM
I'm currently sharing all the details with any Australian who is at my table as to how they can make a submission. 90% of them have no clue about online poker being banned in the first place ...
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-07-2017 , 02:22 AM
Yeah we really need Stars and Party to step up their game and send emails to their entire playerbase. I'd imagine we'll have an update soon from Joey on whether that's possible. I think it's crazy they've left it this long to make any sort of a significant effort given it's their businesses at stake

I just uploaded my submission after making a few final efforts. Going to paste the text below, feel free to borrow any arguments from it but please re-word anything that goes into your final submission as we don't want them to think we're a bunch of bots copy/pasting etc.

a. the participation of Australians in online poker

About Me

My name is Oliver. I am a 31 year old Australian citizen living on the Gold Coast in Queensland with my partner. I have played online poker for real money on a regular basis since 2006 and I have enjoyed this hobby with my partner for many years as she enjoys playing online poker as well.

Online poker has been a major part of my life over the past decade. At times over that period I have lived in rural and regional areas including the Sunshine Coast, Bundaberg and Magnetic Island. These areas do not have access to a casino and online poker was the only way I could play the game of poker which is one of my favourite hobbies. I have studied the game to improve my strategies and as a result due to poker being a game of skill I have had more than my fair share of favourable results. I have enjoyed many thousands of hours playing online poker as a hobby for no financial cost to me personally and many of my friends have also enjoyed thousands of hours of this hobby. Online poker has given me a great deal of enjoyment over the years and I especially enjoy the social interaction with other players and intellectual stimulation that the strategic side of the game provides. In total, I have personally played thousands of online poker tournaments over the past decade and I currently average playing 10-15 hours of online poker per week. Poker is an enjoyable hobby that is a major part of the lives of tens of thousands of Australians including many of my friends, with thousands of Australians enjoying online poker every day. For every submission you read from an online poker player like me, there are hundreds or thousands of people like me who simply aren't aware that these proceedings are taking place and who will be shocked and disappointed if their favourite hobby is taken away from them in a free country.

I have many friends who enjoy playing online poker and I have formed many rewarding friendships with people I originally met through playing online poker. Some of my friends are purely recreational players who enjoy the small stakes games that they can play for online while others take the game more seriously and study strategy and strive to become the best poker players they can be. All of us deserve to be able to continue to enjoy our hobby in a safe, legal and regulated environment and I hope that the government will allow this to occur through implementing sensible legislation to license, tax and regulate the online poker industry in Australia as no current legislation exists. It is important to allow both Australian and international online poker operators to apply for licensing and pay their corporate taxes to the Australian government as no such mechanism exists under the current law and in 2017, it is long past time that our laws kept up to date with technology and allowed this process to take place.

I prefer to play from the comfort of my own home when I feel like a game of poker for a variety of reasons. There is a wide selection of games available online, both in game type and buy-in level. The house fee or 'rake' taken by online poker sites per game is smaller than the rake taken by brick and mortar casinos due to lower overheads, which means on average a player will win more or lose less money per game playing online poker compared to live poker as less money is being taken out of the prize pool per game by the poker. I also enjoy the flexibility in buy-in ranges and game types available that I can choose from playing online poker - for example, if I want to play any form of poker other than Texas Hold'em or Omaha I can't find any games at a casino in Queensland because they are not offered but they are available at online poker sites. I also can't play a game for $2 at the casino if I choose to do so, the minimum buy-in is hundreds of dollars and this effectively locks out recreational players and people who don't have disposable income who wish to play a cheap game of poker for fun. Online poker allows these people, myself included when I feel like playing small stakes games, to play a game of poker for a reasonable price. The overheads involved running a casino simply don't allow small stakes games to exist as the casino would lose money.

I strongly believe that it would be hypocritical for the government to allow me to play poker at a casino but not at a safe and regulated online poker site owned by a multi-billion dollar publicly traded company or any reputable company that meets the licensing criteria. It also seems ridiculous to me that as an adult in a free country that under the current amended IGA bill I would not be able to legally participate in a game of cards on the internet with my own hard earned money. As an Australian adult and taxpayer, I do not want a 'nanny state' telling me what hobbies I can and can't enjoy, especially when in this case the game of poker is legally available at brick and mortar casinos and other forms of gambling with far worse 'odds' (the percentage of money returned to the punter per dollar wagered) and no skill or social aspect are widely available both in brick and mortar venues and online for Australians to legally participate in.

Hypothetically, I could bet $20,000 on an NRL or AFL match on Centrebet, a legal and regulated Australian online sports betting site or by walking into a TAB outlet this weekend completely legally. I could buy $1,000 worth of lottery tickets or put a few thousand dollars through the 'pokie' or slot machines seen in almost every RSL in Australia. This is all completely legal. So why shouldn't I be able to enjoy a $5 game of poker on the internet? It would be hypocritical and illogical to single out and ban online poker, a game of skill enjoyed by tens of thousands of Australians as a hobby and a game that multiple studies have shown has one of the lowest risks for problem gambling of any form of gambling from being offered to Australian adults. Legislation should be put in place to allow both Australian and offshore companies that offer online poker to be licensed, regulated and taxed on their profits in the Australian market.

It is important to note once for those unfamiliar with the game of poker that Poker and "Pokies" are NOT remotely close to the same thing, there is no relation between the game of poker, a skill based card game, and "pokies" which are slot machines with no skill aspect. Online poker is a card game of skill with a social aspect with no relation to slot or 'pokie' machines at all.


About Online Poker

For those of you unfamiliar with how the mechanics of online poker work, I have decided to include a quick summary of the two main types of online poker; tournaments and cash games. For those of you familiar with how the game of online poker works, feel free to skip this section.

To enter an online poker tournament, all players pay a fixed price or 'buy-in' that is contributed in full to the prize pool. Players cannot lose more than the amount of the 'buy-in' they have selected and the tournament will finish for that player if they run out of tournament chips which are given to all players at the start of the tournament. There are a wide range of tournaments available at online poker rooms with different buy-ins and game types and a player can buy in for an amount of their choosing along with other players who want to play for the same amount of money, whether that is 20 cents, 20 dollars or whatever amount is suitable based on their gambling budget and how much money they wish to a risk per tournament. Tournaments typically last for several hours and give all players, even those who do not win a prize at the end, an average of over an hour's worth of entertainment playing a large number of individual poker hands without needing to risk any money beyond their original chosen buy-in which helps promote responsible gambling within a player's budget. In a tournament, poker hands are dealt until there is an overall winner who has collected all of the tournament chips. The entire prize pool is then awarded to a set number of winning players based on their finishing position, with players who finished in higher positions receiving the biggest prizes. In exchange for hosting the game, the online poker room charges a small fee, paid separately by all entrants to the buy-in, typically ranging from 2-10% of the buy-in amount. For example, a tournament might have a buy-in of $2 and an entry fee of 20 cents, for a total amount of $2.20, with $2 from each entry directly placed into the prize pool and redistributed to players at the end of the tournament based on finishing position. By comparison, this fee is typically 10-30% of the buy-in to play a tournament at a brick and mortar casino due to the larger overheads involved which means players can play fewer games in person for their money both due to the larger fees as well as the fact that small buy-in games cannot feasibly be run in brick and mortar casinos due to the overheads involved.

The smallest scheduled tournament regularly held at any casino in Australia is the Midday Madness tournament at Crown Casino which costs $60 to enter. No other casino in any other state in Australia regularly offers any poker tournament with a buy-in of less than $100 as far as I am aware. By comparison at the largest online poker sites there is always a tournament with a buy-in of $2.20 or less available making the game available to recreational poker players who wish to gamble responsibly. For the cost of buying into a single game at the casino, I could play over a hundred tournaments online giving me a month or more of entertainment and it would be a cheap hobby even if I never won a single prize.

The other main type of poker game offered is called a cash game. Cash games are also available on online poker sites. Players buy in for a fixed amount of their choice and can play as few or as many hands as they want and the online poker site takes a very small fee after each hand from the winning player. Like with tournaments, players cannot lose more money than they choose to buy in with, which promotes responsible gambling. Cash games are available online with buy-ins as small as 40 cents with a buy-in being the maximum amount you can lose sitting at the table without playing a new game is your chosen buy-in) and individual hands of poker with a minimum bet of 2 cents. A typical minimum buy-in at an Australian casino ranges from $100-300. Again, online poker is a far more appealing option for recreational players who only wish to wager with small amounts of money.

I strongly believe that regulating the online poker industry in Australia in a manner similar to the highly successful approach taken in the UK which will be discussed later in my submission will lead to a much better outcome for Australian online poker players as opposed to taking the prohibition route which has been tried and failed in other countries.


b. the nature and extent of any personal or social harms and benefits arising from participating in online poker

My personal experience

Poker has not negatively impacted my life in any way. It is an enjoyable hobby, I play when I want to play and don't play when I don't want to play and playing online poker when I choose to do so brings me a great deal of enjoyment. I believe it is my right as an individual living in a free country to choose what forms of entertainment I wish to spend money on and the rights of the individual need to be protected here.

Poker has had an overall positive impact on me in many ways. It has taught me about risk management including leaning when to take calculated risks and when to avoid risk. This has many real world applications. I have improved my financial management skills and ability to identify investment opportunities that are likely to yield a positive return on investment - a similar skill set that traders use when investing in the stock market. Poker has also given me a better grasp of mathematics and probability through studying game theory. This can be applied to decision making in many aspects of life and through analysing the probability of events it becomes easier to make sound logical decisions in many aspects of everyday life.

On a social level, online poker has provided me with enjoyable banter and social interaction with other players at the online poker tables in times when I have been socially isolated from close friends and family through distance. I have even made several in-person friendships with people from all walks of life that I first met playing online poker. I have also won several prize packages to participate in poker tournaments in casinos around the world leading to enjoyable holidays in Australia and overseas that I wouldn't have been able to experience without winning a prize package playing online poker. Most importantly, I have had access to an intellectually stimulating and affordable hobby that makes me happy.

Average rate of money lost per hour is low compared to other forms of gambling and non gambling entertainment, online poker is cheap entertainment

Online poker provides access to an average of over an hour of entertaining game play per buy-in for a poker tournament with games available with a minimum buy-in of less than a dollar. Poker is a game that has to be played with something at stake in order for strategy to matter and therefore the game to be entertaining and this can be achieved for a very small amount of money when playing online poker.

With many forms of legal gambling in Australia including poker in casinos and other licensed venues, online poker is a very cheap form of entertainment relatively speaking compared to all other forms of gambling even for players that rarely win due to a lack of skill by comparison to other players because you get to play a large number of individual hands of poker for a single buy-in and cannot lose more than you choose to bring to the table.

For example, if a player is playing $5 online poker tournaments (a fairly average stake played in online poker based on online poker site traffic at various buy-in levels) and the online poker provider is taking a 10% fee, the player is returned an average of about $4.55 per game if they are of average skill. This means for an average of an hour's entertainment, they will lose an average of 45 cents per game. If the player is below average and has a negative 50% return on investment, making the player one of the weakest players imaginable, that player will receive back approximately $2.27 per game on average, for an investment of $2.73 for an hour's entertainment. The most skilled players will actually win in the long term and will make a small amount of net profit from their hobby. The lesser skilled players are provided with a cheap form of entertainment and will lose a negligible sum for the entertainment they are receiving from gambling - for example, a $1 keno game lasts for about 2 minutes and players receive about 70% of their money back. At 30 cents lost on average per game x 30 games an hour, they are paying $9 per hour for a less intellectually stimulating form of gambling based entertainment. On a slot/pokie machine at an RSL, playing 20 cents a press on a 1c machine at ten spins per minute and a 90% return (in reality I believe in reality payback is less on a machine where you can do 20 cent presses), that works out to $12 per hour in expected average losses for an hour's entertainment. If returns are 80% on the machine, average losses would be $24 per hour. Online poker is an incredibly cheap form of entertainment in terms of average spend per hour for recreational gamblers compared to other gambling games. Seeing a movie at the cinema costs $20 for 2 hours worth of entertainment at a cost of $10 per hour. With $20, you could play 10 separate $2 poker tournaments and have ten or more hours worth of entertainment and that is assuming that you don't win any prizes at all, most players will win some prizes if they play 10 games.

Intellectual stimulation and social interaction

Unlike most other forms of gambling, poker is a game of skill and strategy, where the players that use superior strategies have better results in the long term on average. Naturally, this leads to most poker players wanting to improve their strategies which provides intellectual stimulation through studying game theory and the mathematical side of the game of poker.

Because online poker is an intellectually stimulating and social game of skill and strategy, many online poker players discuss strategy together in an effort to improve their strategies. It is also common for online poker players to interact socially while playing online poker through the chat function and the social interaction that online poker provides is very important to many online poker players.

Rights of the individual and civil liberties

As a matter of personal freedom and civil liberties, it is a severe infringement upon the rights of the individual to restrict Australian adult citizens from playing a game of online poker with their own money against other consenting adults should they choose to do so. We as citizens do not want to live in a nanny state where highly unnecessary restrictions are placed upon our personal freedom.

Lower risk of problem gambling compared to other forms of gambling

Online poker clearly has one of the lowest risks of problem gambling of any form of gambling as documented through several studies including Dr Sally Gainsbury's 2012 Department of Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy’s Review of the Interactive Gambling Act 2001 which is linked at the end of my submission. If online poker was prohibited, online poker players would likely seek out other forms of gambling to replace it as a hobby and be at a higher risk of problem gambling.

Rural and regional areas and people with disabilities and carers deserve equal access

Not everyone can attend a casino to play poker in person. People living in rural areas can enjoy a game of poker online but would not have access to the game at all if online poker was banned. Many Australians, myself included at times at various points in my life do not live within driving distance of a casino

There are also people who cannot easily leave their home to play poker and they deserve equal access to their hobby. I have friends who are physically disabled and friends who are carers. Neither of these groups can easily access the game of poker should they choose to play while the average Australian could attend a casino to play these groups would effectively be excluded if online poker were banned. One of my friends has cerebral palsy and enjoys playing online poker for the intellectual stimulation and social interaction it provides when going to a casino would be impossible for him without a carer coming with him which isn't practical most of the time. I also have a friend who is a carer for his elderly grandmother who can't be away from the home for long periods of time but can enjoy playing a game of poker online. These people deserve the rights to enjoy their hobby without discrimination and banning the online version of a game that is legal to play in licensed venues is discrimination against those who can't attend those venues because of circumstances outside of their control.

Friendship and community

As previously mentioned, I have made many friendships playing online poker that have gone on to become real-life friendships. Almost everybody I know in the Australian online poker community have had similar experiences where rewarding friendships have developed while pursuing a hobby along with likeminded people.

Licensing and regulating the online poker industry will generate substantial revenue for the government providing a tangible social benefit

Licensing and regulating the online poker industry will generate many millions of dollars in ongoing tax revenue through licensing fees and taxes on the domestic and international companies that operate online poker sites in Australia. This money can be used to fund valuable social programs and/or lessen the burden on the Australian taxpayer which provides a tangible social benefit even to citizens who do not play online poker as they too benefit from the increase in government revenue. Can we as a nation really afford to say no to millions of dollars in tax revenue as well as jobs for Australians in the industry and economic growth generated by billion dollar companies doing business in Australia, paying taxes and providing millions in revenue to the government? Additionally, Australian businesses will be able to enter the market which will create Australian jobs and economic growth. Online poker players are going to play on illegal unlicensed offshore providers if online poker is banned anyway, so why shouldn't the government be receiving tax revenue that the major online poker companies are happy to pay in order to operate in Australia legally? Conservatively this will leads to millions of dollars in revenue a year. It would be financially irresponsible for the government to pass on what is effectively a substantial free revenue stream that cannot exist without a proper legal and regulated online poker industry.

Licensing and regulating the online poker industry will provide protections for consumers and mitigate potential harm to Australian consumers. Prohibition has been tried in other countries and causes real harm to consumers through the creation of black markets.

Prohibition has been tried in other countries and it does not work. In the United States of America, several disreputable companies offer online poker to Americans anyway in states where it remains illegal to play online poker and it remains very easy for players to access online poker games with these illegal operators. Even if geo-blocking is implemented, it is very easy for online poker players to obtain a VPN and play anyway. Furthermore, the government generates no revenue from offshore companies that operate illegally in the market. Even more importantly, online poker players have no recourse if their money is stolen by shady companies. In some cases black market criminal enterprises have been able to steal millions of dollars from their customers with no legal recourse for consumers. These illegal offshore providers will inevitably create a black market in Australia if online poker is not legalised, licensed and regulated in Australia. They are known to target problem gamblers with promotions, run no age verification checks, offer no self-exclusion options and on some occasions outright steal from their customers. If sensible legislation is not put in place to allow reputable companies from being licensed and regulated in Australia these very real social harms will be imposed upon Australian poker players and with no benefit to any party. If an approach of regulation and licensing is taken only reputable companies will be able to operate online poker games in Australia, real consumer protections will be put in place to mitigate social harms and promote responsible gambling and the Australian government will benefit through revenue while Australian online poker players benefit through regulations that protect consumers.

In the United Kingdom, the Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Act 2014 is the relevant legislation that deals with online poker. An extensive study was held and a regulation process was established which has been hailed as a win for the players, the government and the providers alike. These laws are popular with companies and online poker players and have been implemented very effectively. Companies that are online poker operators can operate with legal certainty, online poker players who can enjoy fair and regulated online poker games with strong protections in place to protect players and the gambling commission provides oversight to online poker providers. The government also receives a substantial revenue stream under this legislation through taxing online gambling operators which provides a direct social benefit. Furthermore, there is no demand for illegal black market providers with a legal market existing so the problems associated with them are minimised as they are unable to gain any market share, mitigating the social harms associated with illegal black market providers. I highly recommend that we implement similar legislation in Australia to the United Kingdom's Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Act 2014.

c. whether the current regulatory approach, in particular, the recently amended Interactive Gambling Act 2001, is a reasonable and proportionate response to those harms and benefits.

It is not a reasonable and proportionate response for online poker in Australia to be illegal. Changes need to be made to the regulatory approach to online poker in Australia.

The Australian IGA legislation was not amended with online poker in mind at all and in fact online poker did not exist when the original bill was passed in 2001. Online poker would be banned under the amended IGA without changes which would create black markets, prevent the government from collecting revenue from a billion dollar industry and put Australian online poker players at risk of significant social harms as many will participate in online poker games offered by unregulated black market providers if there is no legal and regulated marketplace.

When the pros and cons are evaluated, it is clear that online poker should not be banned as that is an utterly ridiculous position that cannot be defended on its merits and all of the studies I am aware of that have been conducted draw the same conclusion.

Senator Mitch Fifield stated recently that 'Whether online poker should be legal in Australia or not is a separate debate' when Senator Leyonhjelm moved an amendment to exclude online poker from the IGA. It is time to have that debate and due to all of the reasons that I have set forth so far, it is clear that licensing and regulating the industry both provides tangible social benefits, both in terms of the freedom it will give people who enjoy playing online poker to play in a safe and regulated environment in a free country and the much needed revenue it will provide to the government. It will also mitigate social harms that arise in jurisdictions where online poker is banned as black market illegal offshore providers can and will service the market if online poker is banned in Australia and online poker players, myself included, will continue to play online poker regardless of what the law says so it makes more sense that the government collect revenue while providing consumer protections instead of banning it outright and creating a black market.

Online poker legislation in Australia has not kept pace with technology at all. The current amended IGA bill is not sufficient and this issue needs to be addressed so that Australian and international companies can be licensed to offer online poker to Australians and taxed on their profits. If online poker is not properly licensed and regulated, the effect of the current IGA amendment bill would be that online poker is banned in Australia. As an Australian adult citizen the idea that the government could ban my participation in a card game where everyone participating in the card game is a consenting adult is abhorrent. It would be a ridiculous nanny state policy that directly causes social harms through creating a black market and discards a valuable multi-million dollar revenue stream for government for no reason. Regardless of whether a person chooses to play online poker or not, and putting aside all of the logical reasons why a legal and regulated online poker industry in Australia is superior to a black market underground industry, the rights of the individual alone are reason enough to not ban online poker in Australia. Are we a free country or not? If you look at the countries around the world where online poker is banned outright, we're basically left with Islamic states and third world dictatorships. Is that the sort of company we should keep with regards to our legislation? With the exception of The United States which briefly banned online poker but it has since been brought back on a state by state level, online poker is legal and regulated in every Western democracy. Why? Because any sensible government recognises that there is no reason to ban online poker.

Prohibition has been tried and it doesn't work, creating black markets while legal and regulated markets provide protection for consumers and revenue for governments. Regulation provides good outcomes for all parties.

As previously mentioned, people won't stop playing and unregulated sites if legislation bans online poker in Australia, just like people don't stop torrenting movies and TV shows just because it's against the law. Almost every person I know who is technologically literate has illegally torrented media content at some point and every online poker player I know intends to keep playing on black market sites if the reputable sites are forced out of the market through bad legislation. I could load up a VPN in under a minute and play on these black market sites that will continue to service the Australian market regardless of legislation if online poker was banned where I am at risk of being cheated or stolen from due to lack of regulation. If online poker is banned in Australia, I and many like me in the Australian poker community will do just that and these black market providers will take over the Australian market if legitimate companies are forced out of the market through an online poker ban.

The United Kingdom has the most well regulated online poker laws in the world. Players know their funds are safe and kept in segregated and independently audited accounts. Independent audits take place of the random number generators creating the shuffle to ensure a fair game for all players - this doesn't always happen in an unregulated market. Know Your Customer and strict ID verification checks prevent underage gambling. A strong gambling commission protects its citizens with consumer protections and regulations and in turn, the government generates millions of dollars in revenue. Billion dollar international companies invest in offices in the country and new domestic companies are formed generating jobs and growth. Consumers, legitimate companies and government are all satisfied with this type of legislation and similar laws can be and should be implemented here.

Hypocrisy as other forms of gambling create far more social harm remain legal forms of gambling in Australia that won't be banned under the amended IGA legislation

As I mentioned earlier in my submission, I could lose a thousand dollars in a day at my local RSL playing the pokies/slot machines. I know this for a fact because I used to work at a sports club and I saw the tracked revenue numbers myself - it was not uncommon for a single machine to take in over a thousand dollars a day, or a single punter to lose a thousand dollars, tracked by their membership card in a single session. Within a 15 minute drive of my house on the Gold Coast I have access to a casino that offers games of chance with no skill such as blackjack and roulette as well as slots/pokies. Ironically the casino also offers poker but you can't play unless you're willing to risk hundreds of dollars at a minimum due to the table stakes and it seems irresponsible to me to force anyone who wants to play poker to gamble for high stakes when online poker provides a wide range of low risk low stakes options for people who just want to play a game of cards for fun. I have access to dozens of venues with pokie/slot machines and Keno in my suburb and just down the road I can even play table games at sports clubs in Tweed Heads. I can buy lottery tickets at the Newsagent or even online. The Manly Sea Eagles stadium is called Lottoland and sports betting companies like Ladbrokes and Centrebet sponsor professional sports teams and advertise on television. I could bet tens of thousands of dollars on an NRL match at a legal Australian online sports book, with two clicks of the mouse, one to deposit and one to make a wager. On that point, as it stands currently Australian sportsbooks ban or restrict winning punters while allowing losing punters access to increased limits. If the unethical conduct of gambling providers in Australia are going to be look in to, why aren't minimum bet laws being looked into for sports betting forcing online sports books to take the maximum advertised wager from any customer rather than only losing punters who are more likely to be problem gamblers? We are not a country where gambling is illegal, Australians love a punt and in general we believe in personal freedom and responsibility so why should online poker be singled out to be banned when legal and regulated online poker has among the most social benefits and fewest social harms of any form of gambling?

It is worth noting that I don't have any problem with any of these legal forms of gambling available to Australians, whether they are slots/pokies, keno, lotteries, sports betting or casino table games but all of them contribute vastly more social harm to Australian society than online poker specifically when it comes to problem gambling and it would be absurd and hypocritical to ban online poker while all of these alternative forms of gambling are legal and in many cases accessible in an online form. My partner purchases lottery tickets online legally in Australia on occasion. I place sports bets online legally. Why should these activities be legal but online poker shouldn't be? There is simply no consistent argument that can be made that all of these forms of gambling should be legal but online poker shouldn't be.

Adults are and should be responsible for their own recreational and financial decisions. To ban an Australian adult from wagering three dollars on a game of online poker when that same person could bet an entire year's salary on a football match either online or by walking into a TAB outlet in under five minutes is madness. I personally believe each of these forms of gambling should remain legal, but if politicians are serious about tackling social harms like problem gambling, licensed venue pokie/slot machines alone cause the bulk of social harms from gambling in Australia. To consider banning online poker under the false narrative that it may cause substantial social harms while pokie/slot machines that are the direct cause of most problem gambling in Australia is just ludicrous. All of these other forms of gambling are legal and online poker has caused no harm to the overwhelming majority of participants who have played online poker in the past decade. There is simply no reason why banning it is a logical policy position when there are so many valid reasons to legalise, regulate and tax the industry instead.

I will never vote for a politician who is in any way responsible for online poker being banned in Australia or who votes against any motion or legislation to legalise and regulate the industry. There may only be tens of thousands of us in Australia who play online poker, but we all vote and we will all be voting for politicians who support legal online poker in Australia. For many of us, myself included, this is the single most important issue that will determine my vote at the next election because we do not want the government to ban one of our hobbies - imagine the outrage if the government banned fishing or bridge or any other mainstream hobby enjoyed by thousands of Australians. It says a lot about what sort of country we want Australia to be - are we a free country or not? If people in China, the land of internet censorship and internet filters can still play online poker legally and Australians can't, then are we really a free country at all? Wouldn't we rather follow the lead of the United Kingdom and other western democracies that have successfully implemented legislation to legalise and regulate the online poker industry?

I realise that for anyone who doesn't play online poker this is not an important issue and that the government has more important matters to deal with, but in general even those people unfamiliar with online poker if properly informed would mostly be in favour of the government increasing its revenue to lower their taxes and/or increase spending on social programs in a way that doesn't affect them at all and providing consumer protections in general to Australian citizens. It makes sense to simply allow Australian gambling licensing bodies to give out licenses to reputable companies to operate online poker games in Australia and for the government to collect a tax based on these companies Australian profits.

Multiple studies independently confirmed that online poker has one of the lowest rates of problem gambling of any form of gambling available to Australians. I have included a link to one of the studies below, there are others both in Australia and overseas that have drawn similar conclusions and I am sure some of them will be cited in other submissions, a quick google search will lead to many similar studies that have been conducted and drawn similar conclusions. There is simply no justification not to allow online poker to be offered to Australians by licensed, regulated and reputable companies when tens of thousands of Australians have already been enjoying playing online poker for a decade with no major issues arising from that - a clear transition into a regulated online poker industry will allow the government to benefit in the form of a revenue stream while protecting Australian citizens who choose to play online poker. Technology has evolved and legislation needs to evolve with it and it is a win/win situation to legalise and regulate online poker in Australia. A legal and regulated online poker industry is superior to the black market industry that will arise if online poker is not legalised and regulated in Australia in terms of social benefits and mitigating social harms. The government will gain a valuable revenue source through taxing online poker operators on their Australian profits while protecting the individual freedoms of Australian citizens and providing consumer protections. Regulation has worked in other countries while prohibition has failed. There is no reason not to do this, so please, make it happen.

Relevant Studies

https://www.communications.gov.au/fi...token=F785mC4l

2012 Department of Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy’s Review of the Interactive Gambling Act 2001

Summary
The 2012 report found amongst other things with regards to online poker
- It has a different character to Electronic Gaming Machines (EGMs)
- It is partly a game of skill
- There is no evidence that players experience the trance like states that occur when playing EGMs
- There is a social element to the game as you are playing against other people so it is very interactive
- It is a game in which people compete for a pot of money to which they contribute which therefore limits losses
In her submission on the review Dr Sally Gainsbury (Deputy Director at Gambling Treatment Clinic and Research Group, University of Sydney), observed that online poker appears to have relatively low likelihood of leading to gambling problems. The report recommended amending the IGA to pave the way for online poker to be licensed in Australia.
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07-07-2017 , 04:10 AM
Quote:
Relevant Studies

https://www.communications.gov.au/fi...token=F785mC4l

2012 Department of Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy’s Review of the Interactive Gambling Act 2001

Summary
The 2012 report found amongst other things with regards to online poker
- It has a different character to Electronic Gaming Machines (EGMs)
- It is partly a game of skill
- There is no evidence that players experience the trance like states that occur when playing EGMs
- There is a social element to the game as you are playing against other people so it is very interactive
- It is a game in which people compete for a pot of money to which they contribute which therefore limits losses
In her submission on the review Dr Sally Gainsbury (Deputy Director at Gambling Treatment Clinic and Research Group, University of Sydney), observed that online poker appears to have relatively low likelihood of leading to gambling problems. The report recommended amending the IGA to pave the way for online poker to be licensed in Australia.
Have you asked Sally to make a submission? This is her twitter handle @DrSalGainsbury
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07-07-2017 , 04:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwoopAE
I just uploaded my submission
Just wanted to say quality submission, good job sir.

I'd written mine and now, reading yours I've gone back to the drawing board. You make some solid arguments and it comes across as personal which is great. Mine is close to finished, will post once done.
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07-07-2017 , 05:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbeaks
Just wanted to say quality submission, good job sir.

I'd written mine and now, reading yours I've gone back to the drawing board. You make some solid arguments and it comes across as personal which is great. Mine is close to finished, will post once done.

Swoop's submission is excellent. This is not surprising given his passion for the cause.

Everyone please do not measure your submission against his. Just do the best that you can. They are all important and you're the only person who can describe your personal experiences.
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07-07-2017 , 06:36 AM
Made my submission today btw!
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07-07-2017 , 07:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richas
Have you asked Sally to make a submission? This is her twitter handle @DrSalGainsbury
I'll tweet to her now. That's actually a very good idea. There was one other Australian study too that found it should be legal/regulated but I forget which one it was does anyone have a link?

I sent her some tweets asking if she'd consider making a submission and thanking her for her hard work and research, any chance a few others from the thread could do the same?

Joey can you make a tweet to her from the AOPA account too or maybe get in touch on behalf of the organisation? Would be great if she could submit her study/make a submission

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harambee
Made my submission today btw!
Nice work - nobody's expected to write 10 pages or whatever like I did, I happen to work from home so it's easy for me - we want a few long submissions like mine (and I had the time to do one) but getting 100 odd submissions of a couple paragraphs explaining why legal and regulated online poker is an important issue for you also matters a lot telling everyone's personal story/experience. Not everyone has the time to write essays and a paragraph or two can be done in 15 minutes. Everyone who plays online poker in Australia is expected to make one though, in the final week I will be basically harassing all of my friends who play online poker to submit one even if it's basic until they've done it

Last edited by SwoopAE; 07-07-2017 at 07:30 AM.
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07-07-2017 , 09:22 AM
I've started my submission, way ahead of schedule compared to most of my uni assignments which I generally put off too as late as possible.
aiming to get my submission done by next week. (so some room for more procrastination)
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07-07-2017 , 07:08 PM
Thanks to the guys from the 2+2 Pokercast for helping to raise awareness about #AusFight4Poker

Interview starts at the 1hr 55 min mark.

https://pokercast.twoplustwo.com/
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07-07-2017 , 08:34 PM
OK guys, here's my submission. I'm open to feedback and haven't submitted it yet. It is long.....


the participation of Australians in online poker;

I am a 43 year old happily married man with a son and daughter aged 6 and 8. I’m Australian / British citizen and have lived in Sydney for over 10 years now. When I first moved to Australia I thought I’d give it a couple of years to see if it was a place I’d like to stay. Within the first month I’d decided Australia would be my home, and to this day I continue to love the country.

Since I was a child I’ve always enjoyed games, particularly board and card games. In the early days of the internet (the 90s) I used to play chess, backgammon and hearts (a card game) online. This was just for fun and no money was involved. Playing these games online allowed me to improve my game (particularly chess) as well as meet people from around the world, all without leaving home. Even back then there was a reasonably large community of players enjoying the chance to play games online. These games had ‘rankings’ or scores effectively that reflected how you faired and over time, assuming your game improved you could see your ranking increasing. To me this was a motivating and rewarding element to the game, being able to track your progress.

I used to play poker with friends occasionally – a Friday night excuse to have a boys’ night – as well as watch some of the early poker shows. I very much enjoyed the game but didn’t get many opportunities to play. I was drawn to the combination of game theory and mathematic probabilities that underpin the game, meaning that skill was a major part of the game. It reminded me quite a lot of backgammon in that regard.

Around 2004, whilst living in the UK, a friend mentioned a site online that he played poker on so I thought I’d give it a try. I deposited $50, and started exploring the various types of games available. Primarily the games available online revolve around two main forms of the game, namely ‘cash’ and ‘tournament’ poker. Tournament poker appealed to me as I was able to submit my buy-in – anything from 10 cents (US) upwards and for this I would be given a set number of tournament chips to play with, the same as all the other entrants. Tournaments ranged from small (one table tournaments with just 9 players) up to very large events with thousands of players. Game length could be as short as a few minutes or up to several hours for the larger tournaments. On average games would last an hour or so.

In terms of other players, I would characterise them as mostly male (I’d estimate 85% male), younger with the median age being around 27 years old (my estimate), and above average intelligence. The players I have met and got to know were not there for a quick gamble – there are plenty of other options online for those looking purely to gamble – they were people who enjoyed the game of poker in its many different forms.
Without digressing into a lot of detail, it is worth noting that there are many different forms of poker beyond the most well known format of Texas Holdem. My preferred format of the game is called Omaha HiLo, which is a more complicated version of the standard game of poker. Over the years I’ve played literally every version of the game but now I only play Omaha HiLo as that is the game I enjoy the most. As a side note, my performance in the standard game of Texas Holdem is better than Omaha HiLo but I still prefer to play the latter, reflecting the fact that it is not only about the profit that I play for. I also highlight this preference because this version of the game is pretty much non-existent in casinos and can only be played online, and therefore if the ban proceeds I will not be able to play at all in Australia.

One of the things I enjoyed early on in my online playing was that I would be sitting down at a (virtual) table with players from all around the world. It was quite usual for there to be no two players from the same country and half or more of the world’s continents represented. Online sites enforce an English only policy regarding (text) chat at the tables which means that you can get to know players from parts of the world you would never normally visit or meet people from. I enjoy learning about other cultures, opinions, even getting tips from players about places to visit etc. In my experience, the vast majority of players are friendly and enjoy sharing a joke or even a more serious conversations (e.g. politics) whilst playing. On this point, the site where I’ve played the most (PokerStars) would offer charity donation tournaments that enabled players to contribute to fund raising to support communities devastated by natural disasters. I was impressed to see the generosity and kindness from the poker playing community in raising substantial amounts of money to, for example, ease the suffering of those impacted by the Philippine floods a couple of years ago.

Over the years of playing I’ve formed some ‘real life’ friendships with other players I’ve met online. This extends to nights out or even staying with them when in their home town. I have also discovered poker forums online (2+2 poker forum is the main one) where poker strategy is discussed and a substantial community of players exists. You can visit these forums to see – generally there is a friendly community of players willing to help each other develop their game as well as provide much broader (life) advice. The participants in this forum are above average intelligence and I cannot begin to list the extent to which my life has been improved as a result of reading various threads in these forums. These days I don’t study the strategy of the game on the forums, instead I visit threads that recommend good movies / TV shows / books / music / recipes etc. Due to the international but like-minded nature of the participants of this forum I get some fantastic recommendations and tips as a result. And some laughs too! Even if this misguided legislation proceeds and I’m not able to play anymore, I will continue to be part of this poker community.

I have played poker for over 10 years online (since 2004). I only ever made the first deposit and I am pleased to be a profitable player over the long term. This has come about as a result of considerable study of the game – I’d estimate I’ve read around 15-20 poker books, not to mention the poker forums mentioned above. I have played over 1.2 million hands online and my profit is in the six figures. I tend to play most days, for an average of 2 hours, and usually when the rest of my family have gone to sleep. I play whilst watching TV or listening to music and I find it a very effective way for me to unwind after a day at work. Equally, I’ve enjoyed the intellectual stimulation and development I’ve got from the game over the years. I have to travel internationally with my work often and find online poker the perfect way to kill a couple of hours whilst delayed in an airport or waking up at 4am due to jet lag. There have been periods when I haven’t played for weeks or months, usually because I’m busy or occupied with other things. I don’t feel at all addicted to the game, despite how much I have played, and I would characterise myself as having quite an addictive personality.

I consider the profit I have made to be a measure of my success at the game and it has been satisfying to buy various things with my profits however outside of poker I have been employed and very well paid throughout the last decade (top 0.1% of earners in Australia) and therefore my poker profits, whilst substantial, are not my primary / material source of income. I work in the financial markets and I specialise in risk. I therefore understand the nature of the risk involved in any form of investment or gambling. During the time I have been playing online in Australia I have paid several million dollars in tax to the Australian Government from my main jobs.

Outside of poker I’d list my hobbies as cycling; photography; newspaper junkie; movies; quality TV (documentaries / dramas); swimming; music; travelling. I’m an involved Dad and love spending time with my family. When they are old enough I will teach my kids poker and will encourage them to play online if they enjoy the game. Part of their poker education will be bankroll management to ensure they can enjoy the game as I have within their means.

the nature and extent of any personal or social harms and benefits arising from participating in online poker

In my opinion, any form of gambling should be treated with some caution when considering society as a whole. There is clear evidence that there are individuals that are unable to control their urge to gamble or do so in a manner that is disproportionate with their means (resources/ time etc.).

From what I understand, poker is towards the benign end of the spectrum of gambling options (there are academic studies that support this) and certainly from what I have experienced and witnessed, I have not encountered any examples of lives being ruined / significantly disrupted due to poker, as opposed to other forms of gambling.

As a student in the UK I worked in a bookmakers (Ladbrokes) and witnessed regular gamblers that had lost control of their habit and saw that there was no ‘fun’ in it for them, it was more akin to a drug habit. During my career I have worked on trading floors and seen other traders gambling beyond their means in spread betting and other sport betting. As I have played for many years and met many players and learnt many stories of others’ experience, I cannot recall any instance of a player becoming a gambling addict as a result of poker.

From my own experience, poker has reduced my risk of having a gambling problem from medium/low to negligible/zero. I will explain why. Before I started playing regularly online I gambled in a few forms – the odd casino visit, some sports betting, slot machines when I was a kid but I wouldn’t say any of these were regular pursuits but were things I did for fun and enjoyed. Since starting playing poker the only other form of gambling I now do is sports betting – I bet on soccer games I am watching on TV for very small stakes. I am a marginal loser in sports betting, in the past year I have lost $60 in total. I do it purely for fun, to make the game I’m watching a bit more fun, but I can take it or leave it. A few years ago I visited a casino, for the first time since being in Australia. I found it boring and left after less than an hour. I have never played the ‘pokies’ here, nor have I even played two-up. I see any form of gambling without skill as pointless really. I holds no interest to me and I put that entirely down to my poker experience.

From the friends I’ve made playing poker, my experience is not unique. I think there’s generally more of a tendency to enjoy a bit of pure gambling (e.g. casino games) than my own preference but always this is done (a) with the knowledge that the house has the edge and (b) in a way that manages how much is lost/ put at risk. Poker players understand bankroll management better that all other gamblers (except perhaps professional sports bettors, who would be equivalent).

In terms of benefits, for me there have been many from my online poker experiences:
Well developed understanding of game theory, which helps in other games I play but also in real/ work life:

Improved mathematics skills – beyond basic numeracy, particularly in the understanding of statistics, probability and variance. Given my job (in financial markets) this has been particularly valuable and has supported a very successful career away from the (virtual) tables

People / relationship skills – the poker world is full of colourful and interesting characters. Of course, it has the odd unpleasant sort – bad losers, or aggressive individuals. What I’ve enjoyed is watching skilled poker players dealing with these types in very effective ways. One of the things that regular poker players do is make the playing environment a pleasant one, for all involved, it is in our interests to do so. That means if, on occasion, players get out of hand, I will do what I can to help manage bad tempers. Often this is done with careful humour and some empathy. In reality this is a rarity and mostly strangers are chatting, having a laugh, discussing the game and learning about other cultures.

Analytical skills – most players will look over their hand histories to consider where they have played well and where they could improve. Analysing results, considering which games, times, strategies, opponents etc. will derive the greatest profit /results is all part of the game, and developing these analytical skills has extended into my normal working life.

Reading bluffers – One common question I get asked about playing online is how do you read someone bluffing? The answer is not straightforward but I usually relay to people there are ‘tells’ even online – for example how long it takes someone to act following a bet into them. A longer response time can indicate something just as an instant response time can do, however these can be faked too so caution has to be applied, just as in an in-person game. More interesting perhaps is the ‘detective’ approach where the story told by a player in his or her betting patterns just doesn’t make sense considering the way the hand develops. All of these techniques applied to spotting a bluff can be applied in real life, non-poker situations. As I learnt the game more I was surprised to see how many parallels existed with the non-poker world. I would consider that I am significantly better at reading people in the real world as a result of the skills I’ve developed through poker.

Increasing my network – I’ve made a few friends through poker, probably with people I’d never have met or clicked with if it wasn’t for poker. We enjoy discussing hands and difficult game situations.

Dealing with life’s ups and downs – Even the best players will have periods of ‘running bad’ or running below expectation due to variance. Learning to maintain composure, keep patience, and to ‘tough it out’ through these periods has built my resilience to deal with similar experiences in real life. Just as in poker, life can deal you some bad cards and I’ve learnt that this is all down to life’s variance and I don’t feel like I’m cursed or a victim when this happens to me; instead I understand that I should keep doing the right thing and then things will improve over time. Similarly, I could run well or above expectations (in poker and in life) and my experience from poker has taught me not to let this go to my head, get carried away and begin to overestimate my own capabilities.

Multi-tasking / being decisive – I tend now to play only one or two games at a time, but earlier in my playing career I played many more tables, up to 12 games at a time. This requires considerable concentration and an ability to analyse situations and make decisions very quickly. In my working life I am faced with complex challenges with incomplete information and I am able to optimise my decision making in a large part as a result of the skills I’ve developed through playing online poker.


whether the current regulatory approach, in particular, the recently amended Interactive Gambling Act 2001, is a reasonable and proportionate response to those harms and benefits.


As mentioned earlier, I work in the financial markets and as such am familiar with the various regulations that apply to their operation and the banking/ financial services sector associated. In my opinion, Australia, particularly APRA, have applied international regulations in an effective way and I would consider Australian regulators to be amongst the best in the world (I have dealt with regulators in many different jurisdictions).

I was therefore very surprised to learn about the blunt, misguided and totally inappropriate response to the technological developments surround online gambling. I consider that the proposed regulations relating to online poker completely disproportionate to the risk they are attempting to mitigate. Worse still, I believe the regulations as they are currently proposed will actually be counter-productive and drive more harm than benefit. It appears that these misguided proposed regulations reflect a misunderstanding of online poker and cannot be supported by logic or reason. There are several reasons I am drawn to this conclusion.

First, due to technology advances, it will be a regulation that is near-impossible to enforce. It is well understood within the poker community that utilising a VPN will allow players to continue to access certain providers who are not strict in ensuring that Australian players cannot play on their sites. This means that these unregulated providers will pay no tax, will not bring additional benefits to the Australian economy, such as establishing offices, marketing spend etc. and worst of all Australian players will not be provided with protection against unscrupulous providers. A simple comparison with other developed economies will indicate that this is a non-sensical way to proceed – no other developed economy has opted for a full ban on online poker (the US did for a short while, but that was reversed within 2 years). We all know that prohibition on something people are passionate about just doesn’t work.

The UK considered this issue recently and after an extensive study introduced regulations that are regarded as highly effective - the Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Act 2014. Through these regulations, companies and players alike are provided certainty and a fair playing field, taxation can be applied and protection for players can be enforced. Furthermore, significant issues such as money laundering can be managed through appropriate KYC (Know Your Customer) checks and similarly under-age participation can be controlled appropriately. It strikes me as staggering, given that this work and thinking had been completed that Australia doesn’t learn/ leverage from this as it has with many other regulations it has successfully and effectively adopted from other jurisdictions. For the record, I would support the full adoption of the UK regulations in Australia.

Secondly, I cannot understand how it can be justified that other forms of gambling, which clearly present greater threats to individuals in terms of creating personal issues for them, are allowed to continue whilst online poker would face an outright ban. This smacks of lazy legislation that lumps together various forms of gambling without proper consideration of differences between them.

In conclusion, I would make this personal statement. Poker is perhaps my favourite hobby. I have played online for 13 years and it has benefited me in many ways as well as given me much enjoyment. My view is a ban is completely unjustified and an overreaction to a situation that has not been understood by those drafting this legislation. An equivalent could be to say drinking alcohol is dangerous, therefore it should be banned to drink at home outside of licenced premises. The intent of this may be well-meaning, but clearly the proposed solution (legislation) is flawed in numerous ways. I have spent several hours composing this submission and I hope that the points made within it are given due consideration. To the reader – imagine your favourite hobby was about to be made illegal, how would you feel?
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07-07-2017 , 10:18 PM
Some good submissions here.

I do wonder if talking about winnings and being a winner player is a good idea overall. People who care enough to write a submission are probably more likely to be students of the game and +EV, so the submissions might end up sounding like they mostly come from winning players, which could end up hurting our cause.

In my submission I'm not going to discuss winrates or profit/loss at all, but instead focus on how I play for fun/as a hobby that I like to get better at. Any profits/losses are incidental to that and not why I play.

Hope there are enough submissions from cash game players too. I know Aussies love tournament poker, and the past Government inquiry seemed to focus heavily on tournament poker, but I'd be disappointed if we kept one type of game but not the other.
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07-08-2017 , 12:32 AM
I always agree about not talking about win rates. I never understand how the game of skill argument supports the case.

If the argument against online gaming is that gamblers are going to destroy their lives through financial ruin how is it good to advertise that they are up against professionals that will ensure they do so?
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07-08-2017 , 12:45 AM
It's fine in cbeaks case I think because he's so successful outside of poker and as he mentions it's an insignificant portion of his income - I made sure not to mentioned I played poker full time for several years in mine but felt fine describing the skill aspect and that i'd had more than my favourable share of results due to studying the game, I don't think it's necessarily a negative that you can win in the long term in terms of arguments it's just not a positive either, and I do think poker being a skill game is a positive. I do think it's okay for high profile poker pros like say Jackie Glazier and Joe Hachem to make submissions from a 'professional' standpoint but for the average grinder like me who was grinding out 50k a year or whatever it's probably a negative and we should focus on the other arguments.

I think cbeaks submission is excellent overall and think it's good that we will have submissions from everyone from struggling battlers who enjoy poker as a cheap hobby to successful people at the top end of town showing they can enjoy the game, it shows people from all walks of life enjoy poker.

Has anyone else sent a tweet to Sally Gainsbury to encourage her to make a submission? I think that would definitely help our case as she's an academic expert in the field who agrees with our position.

Good work Joey re: Pokercast, I haven't listed to it yet but will later on today when I get time.

I got an email from Party and Jackie Glazier today encouraging Aussie players to make a submission, hopefully Pokerstars follows suit soon.

I think Party and Stars should make submissions themselves and go into some depth with the amount of revenue that they provide to the UK through their laws and that Australia could benefit in a similar manner from allowing their businesses to operate.

Last edited by SwoopAE; 07-08-2017 at 12:51 AM.
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07-08-2017 , 03:14 AM
We have big problem guy's I started from 1c/2c all the way up to $1/$2 every table every game that had a Aussie player on it and asked them if they know about the amendment or have they heard of 2+2 forum 7/8-10 didn't know about amendment and 5/6-10 didn't know about 2+2 forum or AOPA.

I asked them all to check out AOPA or to check out this forum some replied and more then half of them wouldn't even talk, but I sent them the details anyway.
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07-08-2017 , 04:38 AM
Timely reminder
Any Australians at my table we should all say something like "did you know poker is about to get banned in Australia. If you want to stop it, please google AOPA poker and make a submission"
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07-08-2017 , 04:41 AM
yeah talking about winrates will just make the ato investigate and make sure you paid taxes on those dollars.
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