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TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker

07-04-2017 , 03:07 PM
Looks like the Ignition Poker folks launched in AU today... good access to USA player pool, albeit software isn't that great and anonymous tables.

Dear hublot,

We have some exciting news - Ignition Casino and Poker is now available in Australia, giving Australian players access to our world-class online casino as well as a fully-loaded poker room for the first time.
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-04-2017 , 05:48 PM
Strange timing, so they don't care about the proposed laws?
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-04-2017 , 06:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirage01
Strange timing, so they don't care about the proposed laws?
well considering they are the biggest USA facing site, I would say that the laws aren't really a concern for them...
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-04-2017 , 07:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirage01
titan poker, an ipoker skin emailed me today, saying they are pulling out due to new regulations.
Anyone else facing difficulties getting money out of titan poker? And atrocious customer support?
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-04-2017 , 07:10 PM
my first withdrawl took weeks even after i validated my account. the next ones were fast.
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-04-2017 , 08:25 PM
Guys, I think some players have signed up before looking around for deals assuming that there are non for ignition. This is not the case so do look around. I am not an affiliate (nor have any financial gain from this) but if people want to be pointed in the direction of someone i view as extremely reputable then just send me a pm.
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-04-2017 , 09:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hristivoje
Hey Joey

My name is Pav and I run a Twitch Poker stream 5-6 days a week. I hold somewhere between 200-500 concurrent viewers during each stream and you find me here: https://www.twitch.tv/allinpav

I haven't submitted my own piece yet (still working on it), but I have started reaching out to my viewers about submissions. If there's anything you want to promote as a banner on my stream or any ideas you might have, don't hesitate to use me as a resource. I'm willing to put something up ASAP!

I'll be refreshing this thread tomorrow for updates. You can also catch me on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/ALLinPav

Great work as usual, mate. Talk soon.
Hey Pav,

Thanks for this would definitely be keen to get a banner or something up on the site.

Have just updated the website (details in a post to follow) so anything to direct players to there would be great.

I will try and put something together but at the same time as I am basically design illiterate happy to reach out to our community here.

Can anyone help do up a banner for AllinPav's stream?

Basically thinking on text as follows

"Don't Delay - The Time to Act is Now" (Line 1)
"Head to australianonlinepokeralliance.com.au make a submission before July 21 #AusFight4Poker " (Line 2)
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-04-2017 , 09:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harambee
Ideally all the information you sent out in the email but as a post on the AOPA website. That way I can direct people who haven't signed up to the newsletter to what they need to do.
Hi Harambee et al

The website has been updated to include talking points and information about our campaign and links to the submission page.

Please direct people to australianonlinepokeralliance.com.au

Please share this through as many people as you can.
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-04-2017 , 09:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirage01
Strange timing, so they don't care about the proposed laws?
They clearly don't care about the US laws so not sure why ours would be any different?

Whilst ignition in our market is definitely news worthy can I kindly request that we keep the focus of this thread on the inquiry and getting more submissions in before we run out of time.

16 days to go until Submissions Close

ACTIONS

1) If you haven't started your submission yet. The time to start is NOW!
2) Ask three poker players that you know whether they have made a submission and encourage them to do so

Let's win this thing!
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-05-2017 , 01:57 AM
Thanks Joey, looks great! Will share with everyone ASAP
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-05-2017 , 02:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyDel
Hey Pav,

Thanks for this would definitely be keen to get a banner or something up on the site.

Have just updated the website (details in a post to follow) so anything to direct players to there would be great.

I will try and put something together but at the same time as I am basically design illiterate happy to reach out to our community here.

Can anyone help do up a banner for AllinPav's stream?

Basically thinking on text as follows

"Don't Delay - The Time to Act is Now" (Line 1)
"Head to australianonlinepokeralliance.com.au make a submission before July 21 #AusFight4Poker " (Line 2)
Also design illiterate Any help is appreciated, guys.

Happy to put something up tonight. Will be refreshing this thread throughout the day.
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-05-2017 , 03:06 AM
Ok, my submission is done. If anyone has any feedback for me before I submit it, I plan to submit it tomorrow. Warning, it's very long. Feel free to borrow any part of my submission if you're making your own but please re-word/paraphrase if you use any of it in your own submission as we don't want all of our submissions to be identical

Note, my actual submission is formatted a lot better with bold/spacing/headings clear that they're headings etc the formatting didn't copy over to my post here


a. the participation of Australians in online poker

About Me

My name is Oliver. I am a 31 year old living on the Gold Coast in Queensland with my partner. I have played online poker for real money on a regular basis since 2006 and I have enjoyed this hobby with my partner for many years as she enjoys playing online poker as well.

Online poker has been a major part of my life over the past decade. At times over that period I have lived in rural and regional areas including the Sunshine Coast, Bundaberg and Magnetic Island. These areas do not have access to a casino and online poker was the only way I could play the game of poker which is one of my favourite hobbies. I have studied the game to improve my strategies and as a result due to poker being a game of skill I have had more than my fair share of favourable results. I have enjoyed many thousands of hours playing online poker as a hobby for no financial cost to me personally and many of my friends have also enjoyed thousands of hours of this hobby for either no financial cost or an insignificant financial cost. Online poker has given me a great deal of enjoyment as a hobby over the years and I especially enjoy the social interaction with other players and intellectual stimulation that the strategic side of the game provides. In total, I have personally played over 10,000 online poker tournaments over the past decade and I currently average playing 10-15 hours of online poker per week. Poker is an enjoyable hobby that is a major part of the lives of tens of thousands of Australians including many of my friends, with thousands of Australians enjoying online poker every day. For every submission you read from an online poker player like me, there are hundreds or thousands of people like me who simply aren't aware that these proceedings are taking place and who will be shocked and disappointed if their favourite hobby is taken away from them in a free country.

I have many friends who enjoy playing online poker and I have formed many rewarding friendships with people I originally met through playing online poker. Some of my friends are purely recreational players who enjoy the small stakes games that they can play for online while others take the game more seriously and study strategy and strive to become the best poker players they can be. All of us deserve to be able to continue to enjoy our hobby in a safe and regulated environment and I hope that the government will allow this to occur through implementing sensible legislation to license, tax and regulate the online poker industry in Australia as no current legislation exists allowing online poker operators to apply for licensing and pay their corporate taxes to the Australian government and in 2017, it is long past time that our laws kept up to date with technology and allowed this process to take place.

I prefer to play from the comfort of my own home when I feel like a game of poker for a variety of reasons. There is a wide selection of games available online, both in game type and buy-in level. The house fee or 'rake' taken by online poker sites per game is smaller than the rake taken by brick and mortar casinos due to lower overheads, which means on average a player will win more or lose less money per game playing online poker compared to live poker as less money is being taken out of the prize pool per game by the poker. I also enjoy the flexibility in buy-in ranges and game types available that I can choose from playing online poker - for example, if I want to play any form of poker other than No Limit Texas Hold'em or Pot Limit Omaha I can't find any games at a casino in Queensland because they are not offered but they are available at online poker sites. I also can't play a game for $2 at the casino if I choose to do so, the minimum buy-in is hundreds of dollars and this effectively locks out recreational players and people who don't have disposable income who wish to play a cheap game of poker for fun. Online poker allows these people, myself included when I feel like playing small stakes games, to play a game of poker for a reasonable price. The overheads involved running a casino simply don't allow small stakes games to exist as the casino would lose money.

I strongly believe that it would be hypocritical for the government to allow me to play poker at a casino but not at a safe and regulated online poker site owned by a multi-billion dollar publicly traded company. It also seems ridiculous to me that as an adult in a free country that under the current amended IGA bill I would not be able to legally participate in a game of cards on the internet with my own hard earned money. As an Australian adult and taxpayer, I do not want a 'nanny state' telling me what hobbies I can and can't enjoy, especially when in this case the game of poker is legally available at brick and mortar casinos and other forms of gambling with far worse 'odds' (the percentage of money returned to the punter per dollar wagered) and no skill or social aspect are widely available both in brick and mortar venues and online for Australians to legally participate in.

Hypothetically, I could bet $20,000 on an NRL match on Centrebet, a legal and regulated Australian online sports betting site or by walking into a TAB outlet this weekend completely legally. I could buy $1,000 worth of lottery tickets or put a few thousand dollars through the 'pokie' or slot machines seen in almost every RSL in Australia completely legally so why shouldn't I be able to enjoy a $5 game of poker on the internet? It would be hypocritical and illogical to single out and ban online poker, a game of skill enjoyed by tens of thousands of Australians as a hobby and a game that multiple studies have shown has one of the lowest risks for problem gambling of any form of gambling from being offered to Australian adults.

It is important to note once for those unfamiliar with the game of poker that Poker and "Pokies" are NOT remotely close to the same thing, there is no relation between the game of poker, a skill based card game, and "pokies" which are slot machines with no skill aspect. Online poker is a card game of skill with a social aspect with no relation to slot or 'pokie' machines at all.


About Online Poker

For those of you unfamiliar with how the mechanics of online poker work, I have decided to include a quick summary of the two main types of online poker; tournaments and cash games. For those of you familiar with how the game of online poker works, feel free to skip this section.

To enter an online poker tournament, all players pay a fixed price or 'buy-in' that is contributed in full to the prize pool. Players cannot lose more than the amount of the 'buy-in' they have selected and the tournament will finish for that player if they run out of tournament chips which are given to all players at the start of the tournament. There are a wide range of tournaments available at online poker rooms with different buy-ins and game types and a player can buy in for an amount of their choosing along with other players who want to play for the same amount of money, whether that is 20 cents, 20 dollars or whatever amount is suitable based on their gambling budget and how much money they wish to a risk per tournament. Tournaments typically last for several hours and give all players, even those who do not win a prize at the end, an average of over an hour's worth of entertainment playing a large number of individual poker hands without needing to risk any money beyond their original chosen buy-in. Poker hands are dealt until there is an overall winner who has collected all of the tournament chips. The entire prize pool is then awarded to a set number of winning players based on their finishing position, with players who finished in higher positions receiving the biggest prizes. In exchange for hosting the game, the online poker room charges a small fee, paid separately by all entrants to the buy-in, typically ranging from 2-10% of the buy-in amount. For example, a tournament might have a buy-in of $2 and an entry fee of 20 cents, for a total amount of $2.20, with $2 from each entry directly placed into the prize pool and redistributed to players at the end of the tournament based on finishing position. By comparison, this fee is typically 10-30% of the buy-in to play a tournament at a brick and mortar casino due to the larger overheads involved which means players can play fewer games in person for their money both due to the larger fees as well as the fact that smaller buy-in games cannot feasibly be run in brick and mortar casinos due to the overheads involved.

The smallest scheduled tournament regularly held at any casino in Australia is the Midday Madness tournament at Crown Casino which costs $60 to enter. No other casino in any other state in Australia regularly offers any poker tournament with a buy-in of less than $100 as far as I am aware. By comparison, at the time of writing this submission on Pokerstars, the largest online poker site currently servicing the Australian market, there are currently 16 different tournaments I could choose to play with a buy-in of $2.20 or less available right now if I wanted to play a game of poker. For the cost of buying into a single game at the casino, I could over a hundred tournaments online giving me a month or more of entertainment and it would be a cheap hobby even if I never won a single prize. I am sure you can now see why online poker is more appealing than casino poker for most recreational players who want to play for small stakes and gamble responsibly risking small sums.

The other main type of poker game offered is called a cash game. Cash games are also available on online poker sites. Players buy in for a fixed amount of their choice and can play as few or as many hands as they want and the online poker site takes a small fee after each hand from the winning player. Again, this fee is much smaller playing online poker than playing poker at a brick and mortar casino which means that an 'average' player can play far more individual hands of online poker at a cash game table before their buy-in is depleted on average as opposed to playing in a brick and mortar casino. Cash games are available online with buy-ins as small as 40 cents (the maximum you can lose sitting at the table without playing a new game is your chosen buy-in) and individual hands of poker with a minimum bet of 2 cents. A typical minimum buy-in at an Australian casino ranges from $100-300. Again, online poker is a far more appealing option for recreational players who only wish to wager with small amounts of money.

I strongly believe that regulating the online poker industry in Australia in a manner similar to the highly successful approach taken in the UK will lead to a much better outcome for Australian online poker players as opposed to taking the prohibition route which has been tried and failed in other countries. I will expand on this later in my submission.


b. the nature and extent of any personal or social harms and benefits arising from participating in online poker; and

My personal experience

Poker has not negatively impacted my life in any way. It is an enjoyable hobby, I play when I want to play and don't play when I don't want to play and playing online poker when I choose to do so brings me a great deal of enjoyment. I believe it is my right as an individual living in a free country to choose what forms of entertainment I wish to spend money on and the rights of the individual need to be protected here.

Poker has had an overall positive impact on me in many ways. It has taught me about risk management; leaning when to take calculated risks and when to avoid risk. This skill has many real world applications including financial management skills and identifying potential investment opportunities that yield a positive return on investment - a similar skill set that traders use when investing in the stock market. Poker has also given me a better grasp of mathematics and probability through studying game theory. This can be applied to decision making in many aspects of life and through analysing the probability of events in life it becomes easier to make sound logical decisions.

On a social level, online poker has provided me with enjoyable banter and social interaction with other players at the online poker tables in times when I have been socially isolated from close friends and family through distance. I have even made several in-person friendships with people from all walks of life that I first met playing online poker. I have also won several prize packages to participate in poker tournaments in casinos around the world leading to enjoyable holidays in Las Vegas, Aruba and other locations that I wouldn't have been able to experience without winning a prize package playing online poker. Most importantly, I have had access to an intellectually stimulating and affordable hobby that makes me happy.

Average rate of money lost per hour is low compared to other forms of gambling and non gambling entertainment, online poker is cheap entertainment

Online poker provides access to an average of over an hour of entertaining game play per buy-in for a poker tournament or cash games with both types of game available with a minimum buy-in of less than a dollar. Poker is a game that has to be played with something at stake in order for strategy to matter and therefore the game to be entertaining and this can be achieved for a very small amount of money when playing online poker.

With many forms of legal gambling in Australia including poker in casinos and other licensed venues, online poker is a very cheap form of entertainment relatively speaking even for players that rarely win due to a lack of skill by comparison to other players.

For example, if a player is playing $5 online poker tournaments (a fairly average stake played in online poker based on online poker site traffic at various buy-in levels) and the online poker provider is taking a 10% fee, the player is returned an average of about $4.55 per game if they are of average skill. This means for an average of an hour's entertainment, they will lose an average of 45 cents per game. If the player is below average and has a negative 50% return on investment, making the player one of the weakest players imaginable, that player will receive back approximately $2.27 per game on average, for an investment of $2.73 for an hour's entertainment. The most skilled players will actually win in the long term and will make a small amount of net profit from their hobby. The lesser skilled players are provided with a cheap form of entertainment and will lose a negligible sum for the entertainment they are receiving from gambling - for example, a $1 keno game lasts for about 2 minutes and players receive about 70% of their money back. At 30 cents lost on average per game x 30 games an hour, they are paying $9 per hour for a less intellectually stimulating form of gambling based entertainment. On a slot/pokie machine at an RSL, playing 20 cents a press at ten spins per minute and a 90% return (in reality I believe in reality payback is less on a machine where you can do 20 cent presses), that works out to $12 per hour in losses for entertainment. If returns are 80%, average losses would be $24 per hour. Online poker is an incredibly cheap form of entertainment in terms of average spend per hour for recreational gamblers compared to other gambling games. Seeing a movie at the cinema costs $20 for 2 hours worth of entertainment at a cost of $10 per hour. With $20, you could play 10 or more $2 poker tournaments and have ten or more hours worth of entertainment and that is assuming that you don't win any prizes at all, on average you could play many more.

When I was starting out playing poker as a recreational online poker player I appreciated the option that online poker gave me to play games for small amounts such as $2 as opposed to having to buy in for hundreds of dollars at the casino. I also appreciate not having to attend casinos to play poker as it is not convenient and I don't always want to have to play for high stakes at a casino. I am certain that most online poker players feel the same way.

Intellectual stimulation and social interaction

Unlike most other forms of gambling, poker is a game of skill and strategy, where the players that use superior strategies yield better results in the long term on average.

Online poker is an intellectually stimulating and social game of skill and strategy. Many online poker players discuss strategy together in an effort to improve their strategies. It is also common for online poker players to interact socially while playing online poker through the chat function.

Rights of the individual and civil liberties

As a matter of personal freedom and civil liberties, it is a severe infringement upon the rights of the individual to restrict Australian adult citizens from playing a game of online poker with their own money against other consenting adults should they choose to do so. We as citizens do not want to live in a nanny state where highly unnecessary restrictions are placed upon our personal freedom.

Lower risk of problem gambling compared to other forms of gambling

Online poker clearly has one of the lowest risks of problem gambling of any form of gambling as documented through several studies including Dr Sally Gainsbury's 2012 Department of Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy’s Review of the Interactive Gambling Act 2001 which is linked at the end of my submission. If online poker was prohibited, online poker players would likely seek out other forms of gambling to replace it as a hobby and be at a higher risk of problem gambling.

Rural and regional areas and people with disabilities and carers deserve equal access

Not everyone can attend a casino to play poker in person. People living in rural areas can enjoy a game of poker online but would not have access to the game at all if online poker was banned. Many Australians, myself included at times at various points in my life do not live within driving distance of a casino

There are also people who cannot easily leave their home to play poker and they deserve equal access to their hobby. I have friends who are physically disabled and friends who are carers. Neither of these groups can easily access the game of poker should they choose to play while the average Australian could attend a casino to play these groups would effectively be excluded if online poker were banned. One of my friends has cerebral palsy and enjoys playing online poker for the intellectual stimulation and social interaction it provides when going to a casino would be impossible for him without a carer coming with him which isn't practical most of the time. I also have a friend who is a carer for his elderly grandmother who can't be away from the home for long periods of time but can enjoy playing a game of poker online. These people deserve the rights to enjoy their hobby without discrimination and banning the online version of a game that is legal to play in licensed venues is discrimination against those who can't attend those venues because of circumstances outside of their control.

Friendship and community

I have made many friendships playing online poker that have gone on to become real-life friendships. Almost everybody I know in the Australian online poker community have had similar experiences where rewarding friendships have developed while pursuing a hobby along with likeminded people.

Licensing and regulating the online poker industry will generate substantial revenue for the government

Licensing and regulating the online poker industry will generate many millions of dollars in ongoing tax revenue through licensing fees and taxes on the companies that operate online poker sites. This money can be used to fund valuable social programs and/or lessen the burden on the Australian taxpayer which provides a tangible social benefit even to citizens who do not play online poker as they too benefit from the increase in government revenue. Can we as a nation really afford to say no to millions of dollars in tax revenue as well as jobs for Australians in the industry and economic growth generated by billion dollar companies doing business in Australia, paying taxes and providing millions in revenue to the government? Online poker players are going to play on illegal unlicensed offshore providers if online poker is banned anyway, so why shouldn't the government be receiving tax revenue that the major online poker companies are happy to pay in order to operate in Australia legally? Conservatively this will leads to millions of dollars in revenue a year. It would be financially irresponsible for the government to pass on what is effectively a substantial free revenue stream that cannot exist without a proper legal and regulated online poker industry.

Licensing and regulating the online poker industry will provide protections for consumers and mitigate potential harm to Australian consumers. Prohibition has been tried in other countries and causes real harm to consumers.

Prohibition has been tried in other countries and it does not work. In the United States of America, several disreputable companies offer online poker to Americans anyway in states where it remains illegal to play online poker and it remains very easy for players to access online poker games with these illegal operators. Even if geo-blocking is implemented, it is very easy for online poker players to obtain a VPN and play anyway. Furthermore, the government generates no revenue from offshore companies that operate illegally in the market. Even more importantly, online poker players have no recourse if their money is stolen by shady companies. In some cases criminal enterprises are able to steal millions of dollars from their customers with no legal recourse for consumers. These illegal offshore providers will inevitably create a black market in Australia if online poker is not legalised, licensed and regulated in Australia. They are known to target problem gamblers with promotions, run no age verification checks, offer no self-exclusion options and on some occasions outright steal from their customers. If sensible legislation is not put in place to allow reputable companies from being licensed and regulated in Australia these very real social harms will be imposed upon Australian poker players and with no benefit to any party.

In the United Kingdom, the Gambling (Licensing and Advertising) Act 2014 is the relevant legislation that deals with online poker. An extensive study was held and a regulation process was established which has been hailed as a win for the players, the government and the providers. These laws are popular with companies and online poker players alike and have been implemented very effectively. Companies that are online poker operators can operate with legal certainty, online poker players who can enjoy fair and regulated online poker games with strong protections in place to protect players and provide oversight for companies through a proper gambling commission that can resolve disputes legally. The government also receives a substantial revenue stream under this legislation through taxing online gambling operators which provides a direct social benefit. Furthermore, there is no demand for illegal black market providers so the problems associated with them are minimised as they are unable to gain any market share, mitigating the social harms associated with black market providers.

c. whether the current regulatory approach, in particular, the recently amended Interactive Gambling Act 2001, is a reasonable and proportionate response to those harms and benefits.

It is not a reasonable and proportionate response for online poker in Australia to be illegal. Changes need to be made to the regulatory approach to online poker in Australia.

The Australian IGA legislation was not amended with online poker in mind at all and in fact online poker did not exist when the original bill was passed in 2001 and while online poker is now banned under the amendment without the changes this inquiry is looking into being made, it should not be banned as that is an utterly ridiculous position that cannot be defended on its merits.

Senator Mitch Fifield stated recently that 'Whether online poker should be legal in Australia or not is a separate debate' when Senator Leyonhjelm moved an amendment to exclude online poker from the IGA. It is time to have that debate and due to all of the reasons that I have set forth so far, it is clear that licensing and regulating the industry both provides tangible social benefits, both in terms of the freedom it will give people who enjoy playing online poker to play in a safe and regulated environment in a free country and the much needed revenue it will provide to the government. It will also mitigate social harms that arise in jurisdictions where online poker is banned as black market illegal offshore providers can and will fill service the market regardless of legislation and Australians, myself included, will continue to play online poker regardless of what the law says when it is ridiculously easy to circumvent. Of course, we would all rather play in an environment where we are protected as consumers and the revenue generated by the companies that offer online poker services are taxed and regulated by the government and I hope that will be the case. Online poker legislation in Australia has not kept pace with technology at all. The current amended IGA bill is not sufficient and this issue needs to be addressed. If online poker is not properly licensed and regulated, the effect of the current IGA amendment bill would be that online poker is banned in Australia. As an Australian adult citizen the idea that the government could ban my participation in a card game where everyone participating in the card game is a consenting adult is abhorrent. It makes me feel like I live in a nanny state and that I am not free as an adult to make my own choices. Regardless of whether a person chooses to play online poker or not, and putting aside all of the logical reasons why a legal and regulated online poker industry in Australia is superior to a black market underground industry, the rights of the individual alone are reason enough to not ban online poker in Australia. Are we a free country or not? If you look at the countries around the world where online poker is banned outright, we're basically left with Islamic states and third world dictatorships. Is that the sort of company we should keep with regards to our legislation? With the exception of The United States which briefly banned online poker but it has since been brought back on a state by state level, online poker is legal and regulated in every Western democracy. Why? Because any sensible government recognises that there is no reason to ban online poker.

Prohibition has been tried and it doesn't work, creating black markets while legal and regulated markets provide protection for consumers and revenue for governments.

As previously mentioned, people won't stop playing and unregulated sites if legislation bans online poker in Australia, just like people don't stop torrenting movies and TV shows just because it's against the law. Almost every person I know who is technologically literate has illegally torrented media content at some point and every online poker player I know intends to keep playing on black market sites if the reputable sites are forced out of the market through bad legislation. I could load up a VPN in under a minute and play on these black market sites that will continue to service the Australian market regardless of legislation if online poker was banned where I am at risk of being cheated or stolen from due to lack of regulation. If online poker is banned in Australia, I and many like me in the Australian poker community will do just that and these black market providers will take over the Australian market if legitimate billion-dollar companies like PokerStars, Party Poker and 888 Poker that are licensed and regulated and taxed in jurisdictions where online poker is legal are permanently forced out of the Australian market. In a black market, it is the wild west of gambling and no consumer protections exist. Shady companies cheat their customers and steal from them. This simply does not happen in well regulated markets like the United Kingdom. Hopefully Australia will follow their example and implement sensible legislation.

The United Kingdom has the most well regulated online poker laws in the world. Players know their funds are safe and kept in segregated and independently audited accounts. Independent audits take place of the random number generators creating the shuffle to ensure a fair game for all players - this doesn't always happen in an unregulated market. Know Your Customer and strict ID verification checks prevent underage gambling. A strong gambling commission protects its citizens with consumer protections and regulations and in turn, the government generates millions of dollars in revenue. Billion dollar companies invest in offices in the country generating jobs and growth. Consumers, legitimate companies and government are all satisfied with this type of legislation and similar laws can and should be implemented here.


Hypocrisy as other forms of gambling create far more social harm remain legal forms of gambling in Australia that won't be banned under the amended IGA legislation

As I mentioned earlier, I could lose a thousand dollars in a day at my local RSL playing the pokies/slot machines. I know this for a fact because I used to work at a sports club and I saw the revenue numbers myself - it was not uncommon for a single machine to take in over a thousand dollars a day, or a single punter to lose a thousand dollars, tracked by their membership card in a single session. Within a 15 minute drive of my house on the Gold Coast I have access to a casino that offers games of chance with no skill such as blackjack and roulette as well as slots/pokies. Ironically the casino also offers poker but you can't play unless you're willing to risk hundreds of dollars at a minimum due to the table stakes and it seems irresponsible to me to force anyone who wants to gamble to gamble for high stakes when online poker providers a wider range of low risk options for people who just want to play a game of cards for fun. I have access to dozens of venues with pokie/slot machines and Keno in my suburb let alone within a 15 minute drive and just down the road I can even play table games at sports clubs in Tweed Heads. I can buy lottery tickets at the Newsagent or even online. The Manly Sea Eagles stadium is called Lottoland and sports betting companies like Ladbrokes and Centrebet sponsor professional sports teams and advertise on television. I could bet $20,000 on an NRL match at a legal Australian online sports book, it is advertised on online sports betting companies web pages that they are accepting wagers up to a year's annual salary on a single bet with two clicks of the mouse, one to deposit and one to make a wager. On that point, as it stands currently Australian sportsbooks ban or restrict winning punters while allowing losing punters access to increased limits. If the unethical conduct of gambling providers in Australia are going to be look in to, why aren't minimum bet laws being looked into for sports betting forcing online sports books to take the maximum advertised wager from any customer rather than only losing punters? We are not a country where gambling is illegal, so why should online poker be singled out to be banned when legal and regulated online poker has among the greatest potential social benefits and least social harms of any form of gambling?

I don't have any problem with any of these legal forms of gambling, but all of them contribute vastly more social harm to Australian society than online poker specifically when it comes to problem gambling. Adults are and should be responsible for their own recreational and financial decisions. To ban an Australian adult from wagering three dollars on a game of online poker when that same person could bet an entire year's salary on a football match either online or by walking into a TAB outlet in under five minutes is madness. I personally believe each of these forms of gambling should remain legal, but if politicians are serious about tackling social harms like problem gambling, licensed venue pokie/slot machines alone cause the bulk of social harms from gambling in Australia. To consider banning online poker under the false narrative that it may cause substantial social harms while pokie/slot machines that are the direct cause of most problem gambling in Australia is just ludicrous. All of these other forms of gambling are legal and online poker has caused no harm to the overwhelming majority of participants in the past decade. There is simply no reason why banning it is a logical policy position when there are so many valid reasons to legalise, regulate and tax the industry instead.

Australia is a nation that enjoys its gambling and I take pride in being able to say I live in a free country. I will no longer be able to say that if my country bans online poker, I will have to say that I live in a nanny state that doesn't trust me as an adult to make my own decisions. I will never vote for a politician who is in any way responsible for online poker being banned in Australia or who votes against any motion or legislation to legalise and regulate the industry. There may only be tens of thousands of us in Australia who play online poker, but we all vote and we will all be voting for politicians who support legal online poker in Australia. For many of us, myself included, this is the single most important issue that will determine my vote at the next election and it says a lot about what sort of country we want Australia to be - are we a free country or not? If people in China, the land of internet censorship and filters can still play online poker and Australians can't, then are we really a free country at all? Wouldn't we rather follow the lead of the United Kingdom and other western democracies that have successfully implemented legislation to legalise and regulate the online poker industry?

I realise that for anyone who doesn't play online poker this is not an important issue, but in general even those people unfamiliar with online poker if properly informed would mostly be in favour of the government increasing its revenue to lower their taxes in a way that doesn't affect them at all and providing consumer protections in general to Australian citizens instead of forcing them to participate in a black market can only be a good thing.

Multiple studies independently confirmed that online poker has one of the lowest rates of problem gambling of any form of gambling available to Australians. I have included a link to one of the studies below, there are others both in Australia and overseas that have drawn similar conclusions. There is simply no justification not to allow online poker to be offered to Australians by licensed, regulated and reputable companies when tens of thousands of Australians have already been enjoying playing online poker for a decade with no major issues arising from that - a clear transition into a regulated online poker industry will allow the government to benefit in the form of a revenue stream while protecting Australian citizens who choose to play online poker. Technology has evolved and legislation needs to evolve with it. It is a win/win situation to legalise and regulate online poker in Australia and all of the studies I have personally seen both in Australia and overseas agree with the position that a legal and regulated online poker industry is superior to a black market industry in terms of social benefits and social harms.

Relevant Studies

https://www.communications.gov.au/fi...token=F785mC4l

2012 Department of Broadband, Communications and the Digital Economy’s Review of the Interactive Gambling Act 2001

Summary
The 2012 report found amongst other things with regards to online poker
- It has a different character to Electronic Gaming Machines (EGMs)
- It is partly a game of skill
- There is no evidence that players experience the trance like states that occur when playing EGMs
- There is a social element to the game as you are playing against other people so it is very interactive
- It is a game in which people compete for a pot of money to which they contribute which therefore limits losses
In her submission on the review Dr Sally Gainsbury (Deputy Director at Gambling Treatment Clinic and Research Group, University of Sydney), observed that online poker appears to have relatively low likelihood of leading to gambling problems. The report recommended amending the IGA to pave the way for online poker to be licensed in Australia.
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-05-2017 , 03:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyDel
Hey Pav,

Thanks for this would definitely be keen to get a banner or something up on the site.

Have just updated the website (details in a post to follow) so anything to direct players to there would be great.

I will try and put something together but at the same time as I am basically design illiterate happy to reach out to our community here.

Can anyone help do up a banner for AllinPav's stream?

Basically thinking on text as follows

"Don't Delay - The Time to Act is Now" (Line 1)
"Head to australianonlinepokeralliance.com.au make a submission before July 21 #AusFight4Poker " (Line 2)
I'm having a graphic designer friend make up a banner as above suitable for twitch it should be done tonight and i'll post it in thread. I'll cover the cost of it (it shouldn't be much as its pretty basics).

Will hopefully get a few other twitch poker streamers to adopt the banner too once we have it
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-05-2017 , 04:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hristivoje
Also design illiterate Any help is appreciated, guys.

Happy to put something up tonight. Will be refreshing this thread throughout the day.

Hey mate,

As Swoop said above his mate is putting something together. Can you add me (or Swoop) on FB so i can put you in touch with him. He wanted to clarify specs etc.

Thanks!
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-05-2017 , 06:06 AM
sub done!
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-05-2017 , 06:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thisisjimmybruv
sub done!

Legend!
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-05-2017 , 07:04 AM
I've help spread the word to Lex Veldhuis and Buehlero's twitch stream. They now have commands taking viewers to this link: http://australianonlinepokeralliance.com.au
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-05-2017 , 07:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harambee
I've help spread the word to Lex Veldhuis and Buehlero's twitch stream. They now have commands taking viewers to this link: http://australianonlinepokeralliance.com.au

Awesome! Can you please PM me links and info so I can thank them on the AOPA page?

Last edited by JoeyDel; 07-05-2017 at 07:55 AM. Reason: ?
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-05-2017 , 07:55 AM
Hi all,

We are looking to change the OP and the subject of this thread to help raise as much awareness about this issue now before it is too late.

Below are my thoughts on what this should look like. If anyone thinks I am missing anything please let me know and I will add.

We want to get this changed ASAP so I will look to provide a final version at about 9am AEST tomorrow (7pm EST today).

I am out and typing this on my phone hence it not being well formatted. I will format it all with links etc and tighten it up before it goes into the OP.

Thanks!
----------------------
Subject: TAKE ACTION: Urgent help needed to keep online poker in Australia. Deadline: 21 July #AusFight4Poker

Text:

The Australian online poker community has been fighting a huge battle to keep online poker in Australia for the past 8 months.

Their hard work has yielded some benefit. It looked like all hope was lost but now the government has agreed to hold a Senate Inquiry into the future of the game. If we are not successful it will no longer be legal to offer poker services in Australia which will lead to many sites pulling out of the market.

We need to show the government that our voices matter and that we won't be ignored. We need AS MANY people as possible to make a submission to the inquiry telling the government online poker is too important for us to lose.

It won't take long but YOU can make all the difference. If YOU are reading this than YOU need to say something. If you leave it to somebody else it might be too late.

Make no mistake this isn't a maybe, this isn't a hypothetical and this isn't a conspiracy theory. If we lose here online poker is no longer legally allowed to be offered in Australia.

What do I need to do?

1) Head to this page (link to Inquiry) to see the terms of reference for the inquiry and guidelines as to what you need to do to have your voice heard.

2) Head to the Australian Online Poker Alliance website (link to the website). The AOPA has been leading our campaign so far. Head to their website for assistance on what sort of things you should be saying and for data and stats to help support your case.

3) Like the Australian Online Poker Alliance Facebook page (link to FB page). This is the key marshaling point for the campaign and where directions of daily action plans are shared.

Key things to consider.

1) Make sure your answers relate to the submission terms of reference. You may find it easier just to put the terms of reference as a heading and then to write your feelings about that. If you are more comfortable using dot points then do that.

2) Remember, this isn't an English test so if you are worried that you may not be a good writer, don't worry about it. Having worked in a political office before I can assure you that these guys get all different standards of writing. They will do there best to read through and understand your point so don't be afraid about that.

The above being said, do your best. Make it neat, use spell/grammar check to make it the best you possibly can.

3) Speak about you. I have written some general points on the website, don't copy these, use them to stir your thoughts. If everyone goes and writes the exact same thing then there isn't a whole lot of point.*

At the end of the day you are an expert on YOU. You know how you feel and what it is about poker you love and the benefits it brings to your life. A submission requires real people, not 2,000 copies of the same talking points. Definitely touch on general points but bring things back to your personal experiences and humanise your submission as much as you can. Poker isn't just something for lawmakers to say yes or no to. It is a way of life for tens of thousands of Australians. We need to make sure they understand that.

3) Don't get too hung up on saying you are a winner and you are a great player etc. If every single person writes in saying they are a superstar we look quite delusional which has a damaging effect on our overall argument. Sure if you are James Obst, or Jarred Graham or MonsterDong (or anyone from Adelaide it seems) you can talk about the professional aspect of it.

However, the main key on our argument is that this is a hobby enjoyed by everyday Australians who live everyday lives. The more we can keep it on the hobby/fun sense the better.

Submissions need to be in by the 21st of July but I would suggest we all aim to have them done by the 14th of July because things happen.

Start sharing your thoughts on below and let's start writing these things and sending them out!

The ball is in our court. Do you want to look back and think you could have done more to save the game you love or are you prepared to do whatever you can to keep online poker in Australia.

Take action. The time is now!
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-05-2017 , 07:59 AM
Hey quick question guys can a non-Australian make a submission?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-05-2017 , 08:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by siziono
Hey quick question guys can a non-Australian make a submission?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yes. Anyone can. Just explain why it is relevant to you.
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-05-2017 , 08:06 AM
I have a banner for people to use on Twitch/ their FB but have no idea how to add a photo on here.

Swoop and AllInPav now have it. Hopefully one of them will share it!

If they do please use it anywhere you can. Share on FB/make your profile put it on a stream etc

Thanks
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-05-2017 , 08:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by blattsmullet
why is it important to have your money withdrawn before that event if it does in fact occur - why would you not be able to withdraw even if online poker was banned in oz?
You can withdraw it from any reputable site, it's fine to leave your funds with any reputable site you'll still be able to withdraw if the worst happens

Also, uploading images for twitch streamers now. One sec
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-05-2017 , 08:57 AM




Any streamers happy to help our cause feel free to use the graphic etc.

Last edited by SwoopAE; 07-05-2017 at 09:06 AM.
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote
07-05-2017 , 10:20 AM
Just added the banner now along with info on which key points to cover. Also have a command linked to my discord and this 2p2 thread showing examples of what submissions can look like. http://imgur.com/a/sJcut

In addition to this, i think making a youtube video is important. So I will look to do that in the next couple days. In terms of numbers viewing the video, I imagine we can hit at least 10k views with the right thumbnail and title. Not huge numbers but everything counts.

If anyone has any ideas on how the video should be structured, please let me know. I want to make it as clear and easy to understand as possible. Length of video, intro, middle, end etc.

Will be lurking this thread tomorrow. Good night!
TAKE ACTION: Need urgent help to keep Australian online poker. Deadline 21 July #AusFight4Poker Quote

      
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