Hi Everyone:

On twitter, now X, I posted the following tweet:

Straddles, multiple straddles, and extra large straddles. Do poker room managers realize that they are turning their games into short-stack contests when they allow this? Is this something they want?

It seems to have created a lot of interest (to put it mildly). The tweet and response can be found here, and all comments are welcome:

https://twitter.com/MasonMalmuth/sta...18209135546368

(There's much more to the discussion than just this. Perhaps someone can move some of it over.)

Mason

Personally think straddles are very overrated. Here is the short version, my opinions



The Good:

- Like the idea of more people posting dead money, think that is good for action




The Bad:

- Like Mason said above, it creates a shorter stack game.

More detailed response. I hate when players constantly want to put the straddle on, and they will only straddle if the whole table does it. Especially winning regs, just feel like saying "shut the f up already" It has become way to prevalent the last few years especially. Don't mind someone suggesting it if the game is dull, or maybe someone is stuck and want the game to play bigger and suggests it. But I just hate when a table tells a new player "we are playing 5-10-20 with an auto straddle, in a 5-10 listed game" then they pressure a player who clearly doesn't really want to straddle. Telling them how they have been playing it all night, etc etc.

Watch a lot of Hustler Casino Live on youtube nowadays. Really love the way that game is run. Table uses common sense most of the time. Game is good, nothing much is needed. Game is a little slow? "How about a round of straddles?" or "lets put the stand up game on" I understand it is a private game and not the exact same as your regulated poker room.

Sometimes straddles can make the game better, sometimes it makes it tighter if some of the players don't want to play that big but are forced to.

One of my biggest pet peeves is nitty winning regulars trying to get straddles put on, cringworthy to say the least. Action players, it's cool, if I decline and they straddle anyway I'll join in for sure in a around or two. But the players who then make a big deal and tell the whole table straddle is off, screw them.

The standup game is actually one of the best and fairest ways to induce action and prevent nits and shortstackers. Straddles are supposed to induce action but sometimes they end up reducing the number of flops seen and reward nitty players.

Cardrooms probably do want shortstack games. In CA almost all NL have short buyins. The pros don't have as much of an advantage as in deep stacked games.

Utg straddles encourage steals from Kate positions and juice up the game. Btn straddles force everyone to play tighter and are terrible for the game.

Utg straddles don't encourage steals at all. From a technical standpoint a utg straddle tightens up the game. It lowers effective stack sizes (=tighter play is more correct), more people at the table are out of position preflop, and for the co/btn there are more players in the blind to get through with the raise.

From a technical standpoint they tighten up the game. Playing a straddled hand correctly means tightening up in every position.

In reality they probably loosen up the game though, because live players have no ****ing clue of correct poker strategy.

the standup game greatly favors short stackers . it does induce action and punish nits.

If you're a reg in a game where the straddle is almost always on just ****ing straddle. Don't be that turd who won't straddle bc only 7 of the 8 people are straddling. If that makes the game too big for you then don't play it.

If you're a rec player just do what you want.

Straddling can make the game too short if the min buy and cap are relatively low to the straddle. but with a decent structure is usually makes the game better.

What is the "standup game"?

Not 100% I have all the rules, but you basically have to win a hand to be safe. Once everyone at the table minus 1 person has won a hand, whoever is left that hasn't pays everyone else X amount of money. So it basically induces bluff and incentivizes people to try to win hands they might just abandon if there were no looming financial penalty. The only big downside is if someone is a bit underrolled for the game it can really hurt them depending on the amount chosen.

If you want to straddle to push the game up, fine. Thats allowed and you make the game shorter (what you want I guess if you want to straddle) at the expense of posting some dead money in the
pot. Trying to force the game to play mandatory straddles is just cancer though. I signed up for 2-5, not mandatory 2-5-10-20. Why dont you go play ****ing 10-20 if you want auto straddle to 20??

I'm not on Twitter so I can't read the thread, but I thought one of the advantages of games with mandatory straddles is that you pay the time charge, or rake, based on the size of the blinds. So a 5/10 game with a mandatory 20 straddle pays the time charge for a 5/10 game not a 10/20 game, even though the 5/10/20 game plays bigger than the 10/20. I'm not sure if that's true, but if it is, that's probably one reason players do that, although the bigger the games get the less of a factor the rake becomes.

With respect to making the games short-stacked, that would be to the advantage of less talented players without deep stack experience, but plenty of experience in capped games. That would work in favor of the cardroom because the weaker players will last longer and the games will thereby run longer and more often.

Antes > Straddles to loosen up the game (theoretically, at least).

GTO opening ranges for BTN:

* No straddle, no antes: ~43%

* Straddle + 0.1bb antes: ~38%

* No straddle + 0.125bb antes: ~55%

Also, the 72 game is a fun way to increase the action.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF7k6akuFmk

It can be OK in really particular circumstances. Basically, everyone is really deep and it's an action game and everyone is comfortable raising the stakes. This happens in normal games occasionally, but it mainly happens on streams, and then mediocre regs see it on streams and copy it in a run of the mill 1-2 or 5/10 game or whatever and it's terrible.

I used to be anti-straddle and still am to some degree. I do like the "Texas Straddle" at Choctaw where you can put up to $10 on the button and have ultimate last action on every street.

Button straddle (aka the nit straddle) is trash.

Almost any game I've ever played it got better with an utg straddle. Occasionally it can make it worse.

More than that any game I've ever sat it that already had the straddle going got significantly worse when one guy came in and refused to straddle so 1 or 2 regs then also refuse to straddle. If it's just one random it doesn't really effect anything. it just kills the gambling vibe of the game when it starts spreading among regs. I've been in great games that go to absolute **** in an hour when this happens. It's not just cutting the stake in half it just kills the gambling vibe of the game when a couple of regs don't want to give up an ounce of ev against guys who are playing horribly.

There's also the one guy legit just forgets to straddle. Game has been great for hours. So now nitty mcnitterson won't straddle next hand bc gasp a straddle was missed (usually by some rec who got distracted). So now some other reg doesn't want to be exploited by the first reg and gives a dissertation on why he won't be straddling and the next thing you know the game has went to absolute ****. The fun players are pissed bc nobody wants to gamble and they're stuck with almost no chance of getting even so they leave. It's actually amazing how often this happens.

Probably the worst thing in poker is the Button Straddle. Blinds just insta fold 95% of hands and no one else really have incentive to try to steal the straddle because they will have to fight OOP agsint the button for the rest of then hand.

I am very pro-straddle. It inflates pots, makes the games play bigger and allows for easy pre flop steals. We play match the stack so it ends up making the games much deeper later into the night. We have to reset stacks on a new table, so instead of switching to bigger blinds and reducing stacks, we just turn our table into multiple mandatory straddles.

UTG Straddles: Totally fine, though players shouldn't really be pressuring other players to straddle if they don't want to.

Button Straddles: Awful. They make the game way too tight, and if only a few people at the table are button straddling, they make the game very unfair to the players who happen to be sitting to the left of the straddlers (and thus in the blinds).

Multiple Straddles (UTG+1, UTG+2, etc.): IDK, how often do we actually see these outside of televised games? This seems like a made-for-streaming thing just to juice up action for the benefit of the wealthy d-bag fish in these games. I guess it makes the stacks a lot shallower, but it's a TV show, who cares? And these games often play very deep relative to the actual blinds in the anticipation of this sort of action.

Stand-Up Game: I like the idea in general. My biggest concern is that is sometimes violates table stakes. A player who has busted their stack and has no more money should never be forced to withdraw or borrow additional money to pay off a poker bet. And that sometimes happens in this game. And just in general, a player should be allowed to leave a cash game whenever they need to. Maybe some sort of amendment where everyone pays into the game at the beginning, then gets money back once they win a hand would be better.

One that hasn't I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned:
Bomb Pots!: I really don't understand these. These reduce the effective stack sizes by much, much more than straddles. And while they have can have a huge effect on the outcome of a session (since these pots are much larger than a typical pot), they don't even seem that interesting in how they play.

It’s always the trashregs who need the entire table’s approval before initiating a round of straddles.

straddles are also a weapon regs use to try to make shot taking players in bigger games more uncomfortable / lessen their skill advantage since shallower games require less skill.

I'm not sure that's ever a reason people encourage straddling

Hate that.

Also hate that you have to hear about the straddle a million times during the session. Since the mandatory straddle can't be enforced by the casino, you have players constantly policing the straddles. Unlike blinds where the dealers just deal and if the player is late putting up the big blind, it's not a big deal. Then you have players worry about when other players step away from the table and miss their straddle convienently. Then the explanation and sometimes negotiation every time a new player joins and is unaware. It's pretty insufferable. In my games if an over/under had to be set on how often the word "straddle" needed to be said each 1/2 hour I'd put it on 50. Even though you are lucky to get 15 hands dealt. The freakin nit-regs are so hyper sensitive about anyone missing their straddle it's sad. Just play!

I’ve seen it done quite a few times. Ironically, the big time regs pushing for the straddle almost never know how to properly play 100bb and sub 100bb stacks. Their area of “expertise” is exclusively playing 200bb+ deepstack poker and stacking off with the nuts against whales.

I will nearly always agree to a round of UTG straddles.
At the Aria during the WSOP, my table agreed to a round of straddles (playing 2/5). Some players kept straddling, but I didn't and some were a bit annoyed about it.
Needless to say, I quickly requested a table change. I usually buyin for $500 (Max buyin of $1500) and was not comfortable with adding to my stack since I felt it was a tougher game than usual.

I agree that the button straddle is bad for the game.