You know what I find interesting?? There's been a palpable feeling of anger growing on 2+2, directed at training sites & coaches.

I wonder if it could partly be an awakening of the true consequences training sites have on online poker? Reading posts I sometimes get the underlying theme is "how could u guys (CTS, BT, Hastings, now stox) change screennames?!? Don't you realize how ***** hard it is to make a dollar online nowadays??? & now u wanna negate my edge even further???"

Perhaps part of the anger stems from the unconscious understanding that these people are actually one of the very large contributing factors in why the games are chock full of regulars paying rake to pass around dollars?


Or maybe the internet just loves a good dramabomb.

Because without training sites coaching/study groups/other ways people get better wouldn't happen? It's a free market and when it's this easy to make money there are a lot of people who go for it. Even now when "the games are chock full of regulars paying rake to pass around dollars" there are still countless people making 100k+/year from poker. People were willing to pay for the services they offer, it's the free market, if they hadn't been there I'm pretty certain something else would have taken their place. Now maybe if there was a gentleman's agreement by a lot of the high-stakes players to not coach or help other players at all it may have made a difference but pretty sure even if training sites didn't exist people would still be able to learn how to get better at poker and succeed.

The info that isn't public IS shady. You might wanna take a look at the insider's email posted by viffer.

I agree with you people getting better no matter what is a given. I also agree that someone would have come along and started a training site no matter what. Just commenting that the 2+2 winds seem to have changed for a bunch of former golden boys. & I noticed they all had something in common.

Damn sounds like it was pretty interesting. What a tease

lolwut

I think they could all switch screen names and make a new training video everyday and they wouldn't do a tenth of the damage to online poker that the UIGEA has. Let's keep things in perspective, shall we? Viffer wasn't aiming an indictment at the entire poker training site industry (though I'm sure we'd all like to see that) but, rather, just calling into question one man's alleged actions.

"That's fo' true."



(I'm pretty sure Jungle Book is the movie where this is said.)

ike, and admo thanks for clearing it up. my exposure to HSNLers is only through vids and on here, so i guess i had the wrong impression.

I was not implying that all HSNLers do it, and don't care about it. I just felt that there are bigger things on the HSNLer's mind.

mostly ppl just being angry that poker is getting harder. also jelousy that coaches have gotten lots of money from coaching and playing poker.

Ruh ROh

Yea I agree with that.

I was just armchair hypothesizing about why these training site pros seem to taking a beating on here lately. It just seems like there's been a monumental shift away people formerly 'looked up to' on here.

I think the advent of PTR has led to a general decaying of people's admiration for some of the big names. Also the collective realization that coaches associated with some of the sights are generally hugely overpaid by naive students doesn't help the sights' general credibility around here. That's my perspective anyway..

I read the viffer's original post on another site and it's pretty obvious why it got deleted. It wouldn't have mattered who posted it.

Did you realize more Americans play online poker now than when the UIGEA was passed?

In the past three hours I have become privy to some information that leads me to belive that Nick Grudzien, aka Stoxtrader, is guilty of multiaccounting and collusion. I was approached by a source shortly after I posted some opinions in the HSNL thread where I voiced the fact that Bryce Paradis deserved credit for taking a stance / risking his reputation in this matter and if wrong that it may be out of naivety rather than malice. I now believe this may be one of the most -EV things Bryce has ever done, and I sincerely hope it is out of foolishness rather than malice.

My source, without a doubt, has been and is very intimately involved in the day-to-day workings of formerly Stoxpoker, now CR/STOX. This is 100% certain.

Anyone who knows me knows that I am much more careful of protecting the innocent rather than condemning the guilty and that I tread cautiously in these matters. I have never spoken out against any one single person in the community, even though many have done so against me. I hope that adds extra weight to my stance.

I was told many things and presented evidence on a lot of matters. There were many, many shady things being brought up, but the following, I am very confident about and considering the evidence presented now take for granted until otherwise proven:

- Nick Grudzien, aka Stoxtrader, has played, multiaccounted and colluded under the nicknames 40putts and gr3atvie3wbro.

- The evidence presented leads me to believe that he has colluded, first and foremost, with the account name Kinetica. That is the only connection I can vouch for as of now, I know there have been other account names mentioned (LittleZen) but that is the extent to which I was presented real information. My source tells me that similar information can be made available regarding LittleZen, but it is not something I have seen with my own eyes so I cannot therefor verify.

- The account Kinetica, belongs more than probably to a person by the name of Robert Papp, also known as Rob. If you know this person or have been in touch with him, please let the community know.

- Nick Grudzien, aka Stoxtrader, also plays on PartyPoker, which as far as I know, is a violation of their terms and conditions as he is American. He does this under the screename AutoCallON. If he colludes on that site it is not something that I am aware of or that was discussed. I would like to know how to proceed contacting Partypoker on this idea, if anybody could help me with this.

There were many other things said on various other people affiliated with Nick Grudzien, many people who have very high profiles in this industry. I choose not to divulge them as I am not as confident about those things as I am about the above, and they may be secondhand information. Even though I cannot be sure, as of now I cannot think of any reason why my source would be untruthful, other than a moral desire to set the record straight. If the things that I was told are even remotely true, this business is more disguisting than I could ever imagine. We are then talking about multimillionaires exploiting tiny edges and ripping people off for what is basically inconsequential money to them. I am thoroughly disguisted today.

The evidence presented to me is so damning, that nothing short of Stoxtrader completely opening everything up for the world to see will convince me otherwise, including the name of his other accounts and justification for switching them. If FT where to deny a connection between those accounts, I will ignore it as it would still seem implausible to me. I never, in my wildest dreams, thought I would be saying this just 3 hours ago. I wish to God that I could reveal my source, and I have to control myself in order to not post a ton of other stuff that while unsubstantiated my source assures me are commonplace with certain individuals related to this issue. I feel that would not be fair on them and I do not partake in slander. For me to accuse someone publicly, I need to have a very, very strong base to stand on.

It is my personal opinion that Mason Malmuth and twoplustwo have been trying their best to see this matter go as much under the radar as possible, although I have no hard evidence of it, and again, it is a personal opinion that I feel entitled to. It was something that my source felt was important to reassure me of. I will do my best to keep this post up in as many places as possible until Stoxtrader has replied, and hope others do the same and keep up the good work.

Wow, that's pretty epic.
Will the evidence be revealed any time soon?

boywonder wtf, you multi account as well!

Link?

Reading between the lines, is LA the 'source'?

*note* - this is not an accusation, just pure non-malicious speculation....

Hey boywonder,

What are your screennames? What is your real name? What do you look like?

And to contact Party Poker with regards to Nick, that just makes you a snitch!

^ makes sense

weird... always thought the internets worked outside of the U.S. That's sad to hear.

From your other thread:

Hypocritical much?

Get real dude.

^
Boywonder has already admitted to being on Stox's side, or at least thinking this whole thing was over dramatized until he heard this evidence, which has swayed his opinion..

EDIT: Added boywonder's quote.

do you think you're helping with posts like this?

I'd love to, but it's been taken down because...? Speculation on the internet??? omg!

so as long as my reasons for cheating are serious and personal it's totally legit right?