. The rake is still the same. Vip is less. Stars makes more now.

If those guys cant beat the rake now that vip has changed then find a new game.

You realise, that in the end only the effective rake matters?

Its the same when there is a 5$ rake with no VIP refund or a 100 $ rake with a 95 $ VIP refund.

A very waffly blah account of the meeting with no specifics and didn't address any of the issues raised in the player summary of the meeting. Not worth the 90 seconds it took to speed read it. The phrase 'poker economy' had to be mentioned at least 10 times... yawn...!

...at least players are defined as they are, not consumers!

Thanks for the link, it is at least good that PokerStars made a statement themselves.

However like other posters have said the statement is garbage. I feel sorry for ex Scheinberg employees who now have to toe the Amaya line.

@doubled:
Thx for the detailed response. Answers all my questions.

RE: pokerstars statement

"We noted that going forward the VIP benefit is a one-year program and we retain the right to change or eliminate the rewards at any time. We will ensure that this is communicated clearly and consistently."

...Using Stars metric for clear and consistent communications, the only thing we can count on is that if they decide to make any further changes, neither will occur. That's the level of consistency their word is now worth.

Well paid by Amaya.

glad they made a statement. seems some still have sore butts from what went down and pretty much regardless of what stars says or does r still going to think and feel the same about them.

im glad they seem interested in taking care of the little guys a bit more which any legitimate pro with skill should be excited about the potential of more fish in the sea to beat up on and take money from.

I'm just in awe of how many people don't grasp the basic fundamentals of this scenario. Its phenomenally simple.

When top tier rewards get canned like this; "player pool net rake" & "volume played" reduces as a consequence. They speed up the shriveling of the game in an already declining industry from the top down. This volume reduction then trickles down the stakes - no matter how hard bots prop up their traffic numbers.

In poker, money flows up and out - if you bring down the ceiling this doesn't mean that you plug the money from flowing out. The little guy still gets ****ed over pretty hard here, as they set a precedent for future year on year adjustments.

Its okay though, as revenue from MTTs is up via spin & goes

Regards
A Little Guy,

It says on the Supernova page right now (https://www.pokerstars.com/vip/status/supernova/):

• Supernova players have until the end of the year to complete Steps, rather than the end of the month
• Once you reach Supernova status, you enjoy the benefits for the remainder of the current year and the entirety of the following year!

That's got to be one of the most stressful things to deal with - when there's claims of something made, but the actions tend to consistently be the opposite

Disgraceful. Sinking ship imo.

What pisses me off is they prob penetrate the U.S. market hard (really hard) within 18 months and fade sinking the ship for a few years and get to carry on with these kind of shenanigans and lack of due diligence in everything they do.

-- Eric Hollreiser, VP of Corporate Communications for Amaya Inc. and PokerStars

Seriously, wtf. Take the bait down or make a statement committing to it. This **** is ****ing heartbreaking.

Never really intended to post in this thread since I just play as a hobby But even I find the communication as a lurker to be stressful ..

I think these things are covered for bout 100 to 200 years usually.

Swing and a miss. But nice try.

Writing on an iPad so forgive spelling mistakes.

He refers to the players as "consumers" because in the future he envisions selling more to them than just poker/ online gaming. His audience is not the poker community, it is his investors, whom he needs to satisfy that he has a sound plan for growth

Being overly simplistic, there are three main strategies for growth.
A) increase market share. This isn't possible, Pokerstars is already a monopoly.
B) increase market size. This could be by reaching new players in existing markets, or entering new markets. There aren't many new markets left, so Pokerstars' must attract new players in existing markets. Clearly they believe mainstream endorsement deals with Ronaldo is the way to do this (and no longer the VIP programme). That said, there are only so many adverts you can run, and these are very expensive. They need to fund these somehow e.g., cuts to the VIP programme
C) increasing the "share of wallet" from existing players, e.g., getting existing players to spend more. This is often the easiest, cheapest and most reliable way of improving top line growth.

Historically, Pokerstars focused on strategies A) and B). Those approaches have run their course. We are about to see new emphasis on strategy C), and a shift from

Current state - lots of players that spend very little (fish who deposit a small amount, lose it quickly to the pros without raking much, have a crappy time in the current environment and never deposit again); and a few players (pros, SNE etc) that spend a LOT

To future state - lots of players that spend a little/lot more than they currently do on things broader than cash game poker, that come back again and again because they actually have a good time; with potentially fewer but likely not all that different amount of pros crying and moaning but ultimately continue to rake as high as ever.

If you were an investor, which sounds like a better business model for reliable future earnings?

Tldr/
He wants to increase the average spend per player. It's nothing to do with a 'vendetta against winning players'. Pokerstars is no longer just an "online poker site"

This is pretty accurate; , wisely or not, Amaya can shift its strategy going forward, hoping to retain enough rec poker customers to cross-sell them higher margin gaming or other product/service channels.

BUT this desire to improve margins and ROI still does not grant Amaya a license to duck liability to 2015 SNs and SNEs, earned in 2015 and payable in 2016.

I would be very interested in hearing the underlying analysis which they rely upon to "den[y] having any firm obligation to give SNs and SNEs [the rewards they were promised and performed for under the SN/SNE marketing offer] and assert that they did not feel that doing so would be in the best interests of their business."

1. Amaya is a regulated gaming company all over the place ..... and honesty in marketing and paying player obligations counts

2. If they continue to renege on paying out amounts SN and SNE players earned by performance, that may not be what they want to deem a "firm obligation" but SNs and SNEs payment sure would be equitable. If pressed, they may see it in that light as 'in the best interests of their business" to pay that liability to players.

Thanks to the 3 player who went to this meeting!

I was a casual poker player who left after getting my money back after the long Black Friday..

None of the changes Amaya have made like taking money away from SNE’s and giving a small portion of that into Freerolls for casuals is enticing me to come back.
Poker just is not fun anymore and I am more pulled to play games like Hearthstone..
Having a +ROI is not what makes casual players like myself want to come back and play poker.. I want to have fun. Amaya think freerolls are fun…

They do not need to do much to entice me back to poker:
1) Have an achievement system with rewards attached – like ‘full tilt poker academy’ – best thing ever. ‘Win 5 pots on the button 5 times in a row’.. play dumb.. not +EV.. but got my heart pumping trying to get that last pot in a row holding 7-2.. Most fun I had playing online poker was doing those achievements. They could be ‘daily quests’… Regs would love me to play like a donkey and i would love to play like one if I got rewarded in a different way. Eg gain 7000 academy points to win a jacket ..
2) Remove HUDs – think they are doing this…? Players who play 16 tables should not have a 10x better read on me when I am playing 1 table that they are in. All their hand history analysis should be done outside of the game not a computer doing it in real time for them..
3) Make a new awesome poker variation. Texas Holdem 2.0. Sounds easy but I know it’s not.
4) Stop all freerolls and just give people who have <$100 in their account and who login to Stars a $1 SNG/tournament ticket. Max of once a week/month or something.
5) Make a cool H2H version of poker for micro stakes
6) Don’t get bad publicity by doing this SNE stuff to you players.. especially after Stars got heaps of kudos for paying back full tilt players. Amaya has ruined that ...

Poker lost its fun.. but instead of making it fun it just looks like they are squeezing the leftover juice in the orange as much as they can instead of planting a new orange tree.

OPReport is definitely Amaya analysis end boss. That wasn't a fair fight. Weak BS walked into a heavyweight ring and got dropped like sht from a bull. Still even though BigSalmon is a douche shill (owns stock so shillin for a killin) he is the best of the amaya paid advertisements so far in these threads. Lol at anyone thinking Renegs can write close to that well. He probably isn't Baazov either, pretty incongruent styles.

I have a question:

We, the regular players, we must then accept the changes vip system ?. There is no hope of a settlement?

I have a feeling online poker players will get a serious schooling in how business works over the next couple of years.

I'll give you a hint: there is only one reason that brick & mortar casino poker rooms tolerate winning players. It's that those players provide an environment that attracts certain types of fish that also lose (or who have a spouse that loses) in the rest of the casino. Without the pit and slots, there would be no poker.

Since this synergy does not exist to any meaningful degree online, winning players are - wait for it - literally useless. They're in the same situation a winner faces in private games with no associated casino. Actually winners are worse than useless to a site like Stars - they have substantially negative value since they take away money that could otherwise be raked. I suspect in the long run sites will take to banning them outright, and THEY WILL BE RIGHT TO DO SO.

Complaining that you're not going to get your SNE rakeback in 2016 is absurd. This is the tiniest tip of the iceberg.

@gorozito. Go and read post #1 in this thread! You don't have to accept the changes, you could refuse to accept the changes & play poker on a different site, or play poker live or give up poker. No hope. PokerStars have the best hand & nearly all the chips.

I suspect their next step is to close heads up cash game tables cause the possible win rates are to big there.

OPReport please keep posting.

I had an ongoing argument with that BigSalmon clown in another thread after him constantly trying to spruke AYA shares.

I found it extremely entertaining that someone with A LOT more information than myself was able to ruin him and his ridiculous attitude so quickly. Props

Also to the 3 players who attended thanks for the effort it is appreciated although I don't think it is going to change anything.

Also ****ing LOL at that stars blog by that Eric dickhead. What a load of nonsense.

Pretty much done with stars for the most part. Ciao