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Old 07-12-2017, 06:04 AM   #1251
Whitew1d0w
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

I understand everyone has posted this already but have to add my story:
- Been away for a week or so
- First chest i get is a 3400pts chest, clear it, got 2$ + 43 starscoin. Thats pretty much 1 dollar per 14$ rake. Surely only ppl playing <100 games yearly will win 1k in chests.

I will keep on playing mtt on stars for some part cuz some things are too good value but will transition to party for sng play. Party has too little mtt traffic but i'll move to 888 for mtt and party to grind the stupid hero sngs. At least they got rakeback and tbh 888's series are getting bigger every 4 months.
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Old 07-12-2017, 07:57 AM   #1252
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Rather than calculating your rewards as a "percentage of rake paid as measured in Hold'em Manager/PokerTracker", it might be more useful with this system to consider rewards as a "percentage of money that you have contributed into the poker economy".

Those numbers might be more informative and meaningful, and consistent with PokerStars' stated objectives:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafi Ashkenazi
As we continue to implement this long term poker plan, we should take a few moments to talk about the continued evolution of our poker business model as we transition from our traditional professional-player emphasis to a focus on recreational players. We began this evolution over a year ago as we recognized
shifts in customer behavior which were having a negative impact on our ability to successfully attract and retain new and recreational players. Our long-standing model was to handsomely reward high volume players based primarily on the number of hands they played. This allowed the company to gain market share during a time that we were aggressively opening markets and introducing poker to new audiences
around the world. At the same time, our marketing efforts created a generation of players who were able to make a living based upon the combination of poker winnings from other players and the rich rewards we offered for high-volume play. In tandem, we tailored our poker product offerings, our pricing model, our innovation and our promotions to reinforce these behaviors.

In today’s market, our old business model does not position poker for the long term. We therefore began to shift those rewards and tailor our products and promotions for recreational players who want to enjoy the game as a fun entertainment experience that offers many winning moments and the dream of a big payout.

The initial changes that we have implemented are so far having the desired effect of enhancing the experience for recreational and new players, leading them to deposit more money on our site and we believe we are capturing more of their overall gaming wallet as they play across all three verticals.
(my emphases)
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Old 07-12-2017, 08:04 AM   #1253
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

In the long-run, this system has the potential to increase the profitability for high-volume poker players by allowing them to win more money from actually playing the game, rather than receiving rakeback/bonuses/etc.

Previously, a big chunk of money went to rewarding high-volume, regular, players. Now, it appears that a big chunk of money will go to rewards and promotions for recreational players. If those recreational players continue to lose money at the tables, they'll now have more money to lose ('cause they'll get bigger rewards) and therefore, skillful players may now have more opportunities to win.

In effect, rather than formerly "earning" most money from rewards and a little in winnings, it is possible that skillful players will mostly "earn" money from winnings with a little in rewards.

If PokerStars succeeds in this endeavour, then that should mean a bigger and more successful operation for them, but might also lead to more profitable opportunities for players. If it doesn't work, then y'all can go play poker elsewhere with a rewards program that you prefer.
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Old 07-12-2017, 08:39 AM   #1254
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
If those recreational players continue to lose money at the tables, they'll now have more money to lose ('cause they'll get bigger rewards) and therefore, skillful players may now have more opportunities to win.
Except they dont, recs dont get any more money or bigger prizes. They get shiny coffins with BS Inside. "Entertainment experience"
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Old 07-12-2017, 08:46 AM   #1255
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
it might be more useful with this system to consider rewards as a "percentage of money that you have contributed into the poker economy".
It is useful to remember this:

poker economy / ecosystem = Pokerstars profit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
If those recreational players continue to lose money at the tables, they'll now have more money to lose ('cause they'll get bigger rewards) and therefore, skillful players may now have more opportunities to win.

Wrong. Everyone loses. Rakeback Cut = Rake Increase. There are no 'bigger rewards'.
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Old 07-12-2017, 08:53 AM   #1256
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

They claim to

"[...]enhancing the experience for recreational and new players, leading them to deposit more money on our site"

2p2 community is highly biased in the direction of skilled/interested players in relation to the total stars player pool.
But there are a lot of net depositors here as well and from a rnd guess at least 80% of their reactions to the chests were negative, in the style of "wtf do i have to open this thing for 0.10 tournament bucks and 0.20$ in starscoins, are you kidding me?" (and imo rightly so, independent of whether someone receives 3.09$ who has just got 3$ before or whatever marginal differences chests make to low volume / recreational / micro stakes players in relation to old system).
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Old 07-12-2017, 09:08 AM   #1257
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeagalSteven View Post
Except they dont, recs dont get any more money or bigger prizes. They get shiny coffins with BS Inside. "Entertainment experience"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Card View Post
Wrong. Everyone loses. Rakeback Cut = Rake Increase. There are no 'bigger rewards'.
It seems there are two separate claims here:

1) The CEO of a multi-billion dollar organisation, under the gaze of public market scrutiny, with clear legal accountability for what he says, announces a pretty clear and credible strategy to grow a business by shifting rewards and tailoring their products and promotions for recreational players. This CEO is familiar with the details, is in charge of the organisation, and is making the decisions.

2) A pair of anonymous clowns on an internet discussion board making claims without providing any sources or evidence to support their claims.

Forgive me if I believe (1) over (2).



As it happens, and just for the sake of complete transparency, I've also known (1) for several years, and respect his leadership & honesty.
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Old 07-12-2017, 09:14 AM   #1258
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
In the long-run, this system has the potential to increase the profitability for high-volume poker players by allowing them to win more money from actually playing the game, rather than receiving rakeback/bonuses/etc.

Previously, a big chunk of money went to rewarding high-volume, regular, players. Now, it appears that a big chunk of money will go to rewards and promotions for recreational players. If those recreational players continue to lose money at the tables, they'll now have more money to lose ('cause they'll get bigger rewards) and therefore, skillful players may now have more opportunities to win.

In effect, rather than formerly "earning" most money from rewards and a little in winnings, it is possible that skillful players will mostly "earn" money from winnings with a little in rewards.

If PokerStars succeeds in this endeavour, then that should mean a bigger and more successful operation for them, but might also lead to more profitable opportunities for players. If it doesn't work, then y'all can go play poker elsewhere with a rewards program that you prefer.
They've claimed publicly several times in the past that rake increases would be reinvested in promotions/rewards with a focus on recreational players, it was a lie every time. It never happened. You can't be so naive to genuinely believe that this time it'll be any different.
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Old 07-12-2017, 09:19 AM   #1259
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Imp View Post
They've claimed publicly several times in the past that rake increases would be reinvested in promotions/rewards with a focus on recreational players, it was a lie every time. It never happened. You can't be so naive to genuinely believe that this time it'll be any different.
several 1 million dollar freerolls, boosted card matches, all stars promotion, sponsoring big sports stars, etc.
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Old 07-12-2017, 09:27 AM   #1260
chrisoldcorn
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
It seems there are two separate claims here:



1) The CEO of a multi-billion dollar organisation, under the gaze of public market scrutiny, with clear legal accountability for what he says, announces a pretty clear and credible strategy to grow a business by shifting rewards and tailoring their products and promotions for recreational players. This CEO is familiar with the details, is in charge of the organisation, and is making the decisions.



2) A pair of anonymous clowns on an internet discussion board making claims without providing any sources or evidence to support their claims.



Forgive me if I believe (1) over (2).







As it happens, and just for the sake of complete transparency, I've also known (1) for several years, and respect his leadership & honesty.


Do you run Amaya's PR firm? Just having a Title of CEO doesn't mean you know anything. This CEO just proves he doesn't listen to customers (who pay his salary).

Also, this CEO was in charge of Amaya who was just caught making political donations in both the New York and Pennsylvania elections through shell companies. Amaya's actions violated USA election laws. That CEO is a real standup guy.
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Old 07-12-2017, 09:43 AM   #1261
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
It seems there are two separate claims here:

1) The CEO of a multi-billion dollar organisation, under the gaze of public market scrutiny, with clear legal accountability for what he says, announces a pretty clear and credible strategy to grow a business by shifting rewards and tailoring their products and promotions for recreational players. This CEO is familiar with the details, is in charge of the organisation, and is making the decisions.

2) A pair of anonymous clowns on an internet discussion board making claims without providing any sources or evidence to support their claims.

Forgive me if I believe (1) over (2).



As it happens, and just for the sake of complete transparency, I've also known (1) for several years, and respect his leadership & honesty.
Only ex bronzestar players, or maybe some chromestar, are potentially making more rakeback than before, IF they play only during boost time, and IF they are net depositors.
And then, they are still getting for each chest a ridiculous reward equivalent to a small fraction of a dollar. They gain so little starcoins each time that they have to open a ****load of chests and play for months in order to convert their starcoins to the smallest cash bonus available in the store.

I don't see what sane mind could possibly conclude that this will enhance their playing experience.

ALL THE REST, pretty much everyone playing higher than 0.02/0.05, wether they are net depositor or not, are getting royally screwed.
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Old 07-12-2017, 09:49 AM   #1262
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

wow now even josem trolling us all lol
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Old 07-12-2017, 09:57 AM   #1263
Koanajimi
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Quote:
Originally Posted by URFKINKIDDING View Post
Anyone remember when rebuys were racked once .
You could Sat into most tournaments before they started
45 player $7 sit&gos went off ever 5mins
Deposit bonuses used to be a thing.
And support people knew about poker .
Remember when 50% deposit bonuses were a recurring thing?

Good times..
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Old 07-12-2017, 09:59 AM   #1264
Josem
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisoldcorn View Post
Also, this CEO was in charge of Amaya who was just caught making political donations in both the New York and Pennsylvania elections through shell companies. Amaya's actions violated USA election laws. That CEO is a real standup guy.
No, you're wrong.

Your allegations relate to events that took place prior to Rafi being appointed as CEO of either PokerStars (late 2015) or Amaya (March 2016):
"...The $25k donation at the heart of the matter was made at a Cuomo event in Manhattan on February 25, 2014 by “a lawyer from Florida.”

However, Rafi didn't become CEO until around 20 months later, in November 2015: Canada’s Amaya Gaming has named Rafi Ashkenazi (pictured) the new CEO of the Rational Group, the parent company of Amaya’s PokerStars and Full Tilt brands

Quote:
Originally Posted by yop View Post
Only ex bronzestar players, or maybe some chromestar, are potentially making more rakeback than before, IF they play only during boost time, and IF they are net depositors.
....
So maybe this is the solution:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
Rather than calculating your rewards as a "percentage of rake paid as measured in Hold'em Manager/PokerTracker", it might be more useful with this system to consider rewards as a "percentage of money that you have contributed into the poker economy".
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:21 AM   #1265
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

I'm just glad I didn't "contribute into the poker economy" lol
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:33 AM   #1266
yop
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
Rather than calculating your rewards as a "percentage of rake paid as measured in Hold'em Manager/PokerTracker", it might be more useful with this system to consider rewards as a "percentage of money that you have contributed into the poker economy".
Ok then the amount of money I have contributed into the poker economy (the amount of money wagered on poker sites in my history of playing), is probably about 10s of millions of dollars. Much more than thousands of bronzestar players.
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:37 AM   #1267
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Not trying to defend the poster above me, but wagered and contributed are totally different things. But this has been discussed many times
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:41 AM   #1268
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Quote:
Originally Posted by FWWM View Post
Not trying to defend the poster above me, but wagered and contributed are totally different things. But this has been discussed many times
how the **** are there actual people out there who dont understand this, let alone professional poker players
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:43 AM   #1269
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josem View Post
Rather than calculating your rewards as a "percentage of rake paid as measured in Hold'em Manager/PokerTracker", it might be more useful with this system to consider rewards as a "percentage of money that you have contributed into the poker economy".

Those numbers might be more informative and meaningful, and consistent with PokerStars' stated objectives
On a side note, according to Rafi on the same earnings call,

Quote:
[T]oday, our marketing budget is approximately 13% of our NGR. If you look at other operators in our industry, every one are more than 20%, 23%, 24%, 22%. We still have a lot of room to grow here.
He does mention that the deferred payment to the Scheinbergs will no longer be an issue, and there will be more free cash flow from this month on that Amaya is going to invest into marketing, however,

Quote:
One of the primary objectives that we have for Sportsbook is to make sure that we are improving our cross-selling possibilities with Sportsbook, and we feel far more comfortable to more aggressively cross-sell to our Poker player base, simply because the product is in a much matured way today, or it's a much matured state today.
Rafi does also talk about the intention to increase the external (not from Poker) acquisition of customers to Sportsbook and Casino, incl. efforts to grow the affiliate network for Casino.

A brief analysis of the earnings call has been posted at CalvinAyre, but it's better to read the whole transcript.
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:50 AM   #1270
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Quote:
Originally Posted by FWWM View Post
Not trying to defend the poster above me, but wagered and contributed are totally different things. But this has been discussed many times
It only depends of your definition of "contributing" and "poker economy".
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Old 07-12-2017, 10:50 AM   #1271
reddev
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Does anybody know what makes the points needed for a chest to go up and is it possible to get it back down?

My platinum chests were opening at 10250 and the RB seemed reasonable but they have now suddenly gone up to 20000!
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Old 07-12-2017, 11:05 AM   #1272
GERB1111
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Does anyone know what percentage% rb this works out for an old school supernova?

Is it lower than 20%?
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Old 07-12-2017, 11:07 AM   #1273
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Quote:
Originally Posted by GERB1111 View Post
Does anyone know what percentage% rb this works out for an old school supernova?

Is it lower than 20%?
yeah it's def lower
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Old 07-12-2017, 11:18 AM   #1274
reddev
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Quote:
Originally Posted by GERB1111 View Post
Does anyone know what percentage% rb this works out for an old school supernova?

Is it lower than 20%?
Plus it can change so you have to take that into account. Since the start my platinum boxes have been 10250 but they have now basically doubled to 20000 effectively halving my RB.
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Old 07-12-2017, 11:19 AM   #1275
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Re: Stars confirms new rewards program: Chests

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Imp View Post
They've claimed publicly several times in the past that rake increases would be reinvested in promotions/rewards with a focus on recreational players, it was a lie every time. It never happened. You can't be so naive to genuinely believe that this time it'll be any different.
!

Remember when they cut first, then completely deleted Battle of the Planets (most attractive SnG Promo i remember) and announced they would use the money for other Promos. Never heard of again.
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