Springfield Mo “Club” raided - Poker News

IANAL, but after poking around online for a few minutes, the laws in Missouri seem to be a lot more strict. You can't profit in any way from a game, you can't own gambling devices, and if a player derives more than 20% of their income from gambling, they are automatically a criminal. Comparing that to Texas is apples to oranges, imo.

https://www.gamblingonline.com/laws/missouri/

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07-12-2019 , 11:11 AM

BEANO52

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Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 1,031

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conan776

. . .Comparing that to Texas is apples to oranges, imo.

https://www.gamblingonline.com/laws/missouri/

The way the club was being run, i.e. seat rental, membership fees etc. is exactly like the Texas clubs. I never said a word about gambling legislation state vs. state.

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07-12-2019 , 11:33 AM

trob888

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Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 5,403

What a bunch of morons. Three major casino companies have properties in Missouri. They'll never allow clubs like these to get started.

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07-12-2019 , 12:57 PM

fsp23

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 109

A friend wanted to go down to play here. I told her after looking into it for under 5 minutes that it would be shut down almost immediately. She argued, and disagreed. Fine.

Weeks later, this happens.

I like how they say "oh, we dont tke rake", but then charge membership fees, seat fees, time fees. Just because you change the name of how you take peoples money, it doesnt change the fact that you are profitting. Anyone who can;t understand that, kinda deserves to have their money taken here.

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07-12-2019 , 02:11 PM

kimoser22

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Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 3,822

Quote:

Originally Posted by fsp23

I mean this is literally the same model as Texas...only in Texas a legislative aide found (what appears) to be a loophole by not actively raking. Obviously, this founder didn't do the DD for Missouri, and we'll see if Texas clubs withstand the court system, but to dismiss the idea off hand seems silly.

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07-12-2019 , 03:43 PM

fsp23

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 109

Quote:

Originally Posted by kimoser22

Didn't dismiss it offhand. Missouri law clearly says there can be no profit, rake or otherwise.

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07-12-2019 , 04:07 PM

mchine

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Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 568

Texas law says the same thing.
Clubs in Texas have also been raided and shut down.
Some cities allow the clubs to operate.
It just depends on the local authorities.

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07-12-2019 , 05:28 PM

fsp23

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 109

Quote:

Originally Posted by mchine

Texas law says the same thing.
Clubs in Texas have also been raided and shut down.
Some cities allow the clubs to operate.
It just depends on the local authorities.

In Missouri's case, it was more on the casinos pushing gaming to get the authorities involved.

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07-12-2019 , 09:33 PM

#10

Gzesh

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Join Date: May 2011 Posts: 7,643

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conan776

I ANAL, .....

fyp

Not sure that information is relevant to the ultimate topic, but thanks for posting it as an introductory note

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07-12-2019 , 10:41 PM

#11

Conan776

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Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 3,748

Sometimes I pretend it's a horseshoe.

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07-13-2019 , 07:40 AM

#12

madlex

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The major difference between Texas and Missouri is that the latter has legal casinos who are a pretty powerful stakeholder in that conversation.

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07-13-2019 , 01:59 PM

#13

Scott7x

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Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 1,186

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conan776

Scratching my head...
Don’t understand the unenforceable vague law they made about it having to be a ‘social’ game for it to be legal.
Also what’s up with the 20%? If you bink a tourney you’re a criminal?

Edit - also what if you’re retired or taking a year off work, are you just not allowed to gamble at all since any win would be greater than 20% of your income?

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07-13-2019 , 04:43 PM

#14

Calldown88

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2017 Posts: 500

I live legitimately a 2 minute walk from this place and it really sucks that it got shut down, but I'm not surprised. I'm gonna be salty about it for awhile.

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07-14-2019 , 07:03 AM

#15

venice10

Referee

Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 25,852

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott7x

In the state of Missouri, the answer is yes. There is no constituional right to gamble. The states can decide how little (Hawaii, Utah), or much (Nevada) they want to allow. I will note that retirees get income often from their investments, retirement savings and social security.

The irony of one of Missouri's most famous natives was a major poker player should not be lost. It was said that Mark Twain would earn more money playing poker than he would get in speaking fees when he went on tour.

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07-14-2019 , 02:54 PM

#16

Scott7x

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Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 1,186

Interesting, TY. Looked into it a bit more and apparently all casinos in Missouri have to be within 1000ft of water, or "riverboats". Can't be land based, although the "riverboats" aren't required to move, and are built to look like they are land based.

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07-15-2019 , 03:30 AM

#17

BDHarrison

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Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 4,529

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott7x

Technically, Lumiere is a concrete boat floating on an artificial basin.

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07-15-2019 , 08:05 AM

#18

madlex

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Quote:

Originally Posted by BDHarrison

Technically, Lumiere is a concrete boat floating on an artificial basin.

If you stand in front of Ameristar in Kansas City, you have no idea that thing fits the definition of a riverboat. Except for two goofy pylons. Same for Harrah’s. And Isle of Capri looks so crappy, I would never set foot on it if that was a real ship on the river.

Interesting enough, I’ve read that when they passed those laws in the 90s the commercial shipping industry spent a boatload (pun intended) of cash on making sure that casinos don’t actually swim on the Mississippi or Missouri. Apparently the risk of hitting a real riverboat and harming people on there would have been pretty bad for insurance rates.

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07-15-2019 , 02:57 PM

#19

fsp23

centurion

Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 109

Quote:

Originally Posted by madlex

They actually did float for a short time initially. I think it was two hour trips.

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07-15-2019 , 04:20 PM

#20

BEANO52

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Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 1,031

Some other interesting facts about Missouri "Boats on moats" casinos.

They have to have a life jacket for every person "aboard"
They're required to keep a master licensed "captain" aboard the "ship".

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07-15-2019 , 06:02 PM

#21

hAmThEkIlLeR

grinder

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 569

Quote:

Originally Posted by BEANO52

The way the club was being run, i.e. seat rental, membership fees etc. is exactly like the Texas clubs. I never said a word about gambling legislation state vs. state.

I think only a couple of Houston clubs were hit, and afterwards the press release said from law enforcement that they were raided for being "money laundering operations."

The actus reus here seems to be strictly gambling, so as far as I can tell, that is different in this case.

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07-16-2019 , 09:02 AM

#22

BEANO52

adept

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 1,031

Quote:

Originally Posted by hAmThEkIlLeR

“We are changing the paradigm regarding illegal gambling by moving up the criminal chain and pursuing felony money laundering and engaging in organized crime charges against owners and operators,” Houston District Attorney Kim Ogg said. “Players are not being targeted.”

Not "money laundering" in the traditional sense, i.e. taking mob money and washing it with legitimate business. More like taking "illegally acquired" money and claiming it was "legally acquired".

Money Laundering: The concealment of the origins of illegally obtained money, typically by means of transfers involving foreign banks or legitimate businesses.

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07-17-2019 , 12:19 PM

#23

BEANO52

adept

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 1,031

X-posted from Houston (Texas) thread:

Money Laundering & ALL CHARGES have been dropped by DA.

Article

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07-17-2019 , 10:48 PM

#24

mizzoulegend

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Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 161

Quote:

Originally Posted by madlex

Years ago they were boats, and then the Casino Queen got crooked and hit a bridge. The news stations interviewed everyone from the coast guard to the fire department and no one took responsibility for jurisdiction. So, they stopped floating. Then, we wanted nicer places. Lumiere is adjacent to the Four seasons and is built in an old entertainment district on the riverfront. It in now way is a boat. its built vegas style. The proposed Rams stadium would have been built nearby.

they are all near a river, however.

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07-18-2019 , 12:06 PM

#25

BEANO52

adept

Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 1,031

Quote:

Originally Posted by mizzoulegend

. . . and then the Casino Queen got crooked and hit a bridge. The news stations interviewed everyone from the coast guard to the fire department and no one took responsibility for jurisdiction. So, they stopped floating. . . .

Technically it was the the Admiral that was hit and floated into the bridge. It reopened and operated as normal for years after that accident, as a boat.

Wash Post Article

NTSB Report

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