As usual NVG overlooks logic and just screams f the grinders we want to gamble.

This has to be the dumbest thing you have ever said bordering on delusion. The winnings players taking more out than rake?? Haha how out of touch are you.

Stars overcharges for their service. An online card room does not have nearly the expenses of a brick and mortar card room per table yet stars rakes the same.

The second part of what you say is a little more accurate which is why we will continue to see the value of SNE and the rest of the rewards system continue to decrease. Wouldn't be surprised to see the VIP system completely eliminated in the near future. Look what Amaya(front for the purchasing banks) Stars did to the super affiliates; reneging on longstanding deals to squeeze out some dimes. The new company has shown they will basically do anything to increase short term profits now that they have a monopoly. If players have nowhere else to play why would stars reward them for playing on their site?

It's also certainly not true. It's not a zero sum game and the winning players leaving doesn't guarantee anybody will win. I doubt anybody beats .25/.50 headsup limit games (do those still run). DN's Hell should be going broke and being forced to play three dollar/six dollar lhe with a $5+$1 drop.

eta - two posts above, the zero sum and some will win bit

Like serious Daniel? Just shilling? You honestly thought winning players earn more than rake? Rake is a 100bb/100 winner on some tables. Respect diminishing...

THIS

Poker's not fun anymore. Sitting there getting bled dry every deposit is depressing. I'm playing every night again and it's fun - who cares about rake? They're like $30 max anyway right?

Reading some of the pompous horse**** in this thread is infuriating. "Waaah I can't get another 15k a year in bonuses on top of sitting on my arse all day clicking buttons waaah". GTFO nobody outside this community has any symphathy. Poker doesn't owe you anything. It's nice to have a chance

you will bleed faster with that format than with anything else

No gameselecting on itself doesnt have to be bad. Not seeing the pool whatsoever is. Its hard to see whats running, how much money you are burning at high rake and for colussion problems.

Proof, scaremongering? Its not that hard to look. a 3MAX game has the same amount of rake as a same structured 9MAX hyper game, higher than 6max and almost twice as high as a heads up hyper. This while hypers areallready raked high, its not just for fun that most snes are sng players and the top 10 isp retty much all sngs, they were allready overraked like hell.

Third, you litteraly have no idea bout variance. Ido, i played thru multiple 500-700 buyin down and upswings in normal hypers. These are multiple times worse. You just want to hit on regs because if you do the work with Max Cut program you will see it is essentially a casino game.


This adapting **** is such bull****, how about we all adapt to roulette, its what randoms like the most! I adapted instantly when 6max hypers came out because i knew it was pretty clear fish would like that over full ring turbos and 6max turbos. I can do the same for spin and gos if I need to but not in a system designed to be a game of pure luck for almost everyone except if you play it for over 5 years, with enormous rake and blind lobbies.

False

There are always winning players and them leaving the website will only result in less rake and other players becoming winning players.

But essentially, aren't you saying that you want to win more and lose less?

Because if the regs weren't there to generate the rake that pays for your promos, then wouldn't the only players left to pay for the promos be you?

Like, guess you're saying that you wish there were fewer skilled players around, and that Stars' would give more of your money spent back to you via promos, and then that way hopefully you'd make more ... or at least lose less?


Think we all wish for that

Not sure if the existence of Spin & Gos actually helps anyone make more and lose less though - unless you hit a big jackpot, but the odds of that happening aren't great ... although they are kind of fun, IF you're running hot. Ultimately, guess since Stars is there to make a profit, they're always going to be looking to have someone pay the bills.

Ofc I know that, but I wanted to point out where the money comes from. You cant equate "rake = money earned by the site" like many did ITT and elsewhere bcos first of all you need ppl bringing cash in. No depositors = no rake = no real money games. Consider this: If you only had the SNs/SNEs and no other players, they would only play for their initial deposits until those deposits would all be redistributed in the form of cashouts and rake held by the site and then all the games would stop (and they would stop rather swift).

Exactly, so many dumb regs without a clue ITT.

These things are great for recs, great for poker and great for regs willing to stomach the variance.

Regs that make more money than you, sure, dumb.

Then they wont give a toss about these new games and can just go out and spend some $$$.

Finally you buys start to see what kind damage softwares/training sites have done? Only solution is ban tracking softwares/sites/scripts.

First they make turbos, then hypers and then spin and go's. Some might call it evolution but to me it's straight robbery.

Stars start to look more and more like roulette and it's not because they have that sexy ftp live dealer banner there on them lobby.

DNegs,

Your attitude is short-sighted and I completely disagree that winning players are killing the poker economy. But that is hardly the point. Stars has become the most successful site by following a model. That model has been to build loyalty among a group of regular winning players that keep the games running constantly. Without them, there wouldn't be a satellite to the Sunday Million starting right now, and there wouldn't be a 10M guarantee on the WCOOP Main. If Stars decides that's not how they want to do things anymore, fine. It's their company and they don't owe anyone anything by the letter of the law.

But they have had an agreement specifically with high level VIP members that in exchange for player loyalty, they will not dramatically change the landscape in a way that will hurt the SNE and Supernova chase late in the year. They have specifically referenced this on this forum (I'm not going to bother finding an example to link here, but maybe someone else can) by saying things pretty much exactly like "we're thinking about changing this structure/format/rake/whatever but not until the new year because we don't want to disrupt the VIP chase."

Everything Stars does in terms of introducing new games is meticulously thought out. They absolutely knew how this would affect the SNG regulars. If they have decided to change the business model to one that doesn't depend on the loyalty of the VIP members anymore, I respect that. It's absolutely their prerogative. But they owe the players who are 3/4 of the way through the VIP chase the right to complete it this year without this obstacle. This could have easily waited until January.

Ansky,

It sounds like you aren't aware of what I mentioned above, or just didn't think your comment through. If a company offered half priced long distance to anyone who called Europe 300+ days out of the year, and then announced on the 299th day of the year that they were discontinuing their service to Europe, would that be a decent thing to do? Would customer complaints be laughable because if they don't like the promotion they shouldn't do it? Stars has led SNG players to believe over the last 6-7 years that they won't pull the rug out from under them on the VIP chase at the end of the year. There is a certain trust involve. Seems like they are breaking that trust now.

This is not at all about whether Spin and Gos are the best thing for the poker economy. That's 100% up to Stars. I'd suggest they listen to the players' voice, but that's up to them. This is about not screwing over the players in October after you offered them a year-long promotion in January. It's just not cool. And Stars has always been cool to the players. Is this a one-time thing that will be remedied, or is this the new Stars?

Casino games, Spin&Go, All-in Shootouts tournaments... RIP poker.


Yeah that's EXACTLY the problem good read sir.

Except that they still offer the Europe service, its just they now also offer an Australia service and some of their customers (and maybe new customers) choose for that.

Nope. The point is that it's a bait and switch in a way. They've made their money off the regs for the year, and now the reward heavy part has become more difficult to attain than players were led to believe.

Disclaimer: I haven't played enough of my games lately to know if they are affected by this. I'm just standing up for SNG regs because I assume they are telling the truth about the games being dead.

I think DNegs should propose to PS for the less regular recreative players to earn SNE level bonus and Bronze levels to be awarded to the players who play more hours on the site.

In one year we'll see if that effective rake increase would benefit the site or if the players would play somewhere else and maybe DN wages could also become proportionally downgraded by PS.

Winning players at mid and high stakes make more than they pay in rake. Of course, at micros it's basically impossible to do.

The real problem is the rake in the micro stakes. The money in poker should flow upward from the micros. Winning players move up and lose to the more skilled players at the higher stakes, those players try to move up and the same thing happens to them.

When the small stakes are raked so badly that they can't be beaten then money stops flowing upward and the games get tougher so more people lose and don't redeposit.

Put a 2bb/hand cap on rake at .5/1 and lower and everything will be better

what hurts the poker ecosystem most is the high rake.

Very good post, with a kind of rhetoric question at the end, I fear...

i agree so much

^^Yes, that one, too. Straight to the point. I actually wanted to quote that one, first of all, but then forgot after reading the long post.

I think there a good idea. You can't have it easy forever, their marketing to recreational players and trying to make the game more fun. Suck it up.

All games need fresh blood. NP PS IMO