Hey Mason,

My point was only half serious. I know that over the course of the game that everyone pays rake, including the recreationals, I just felt that the argument of the guy who posted slightly before you that the money in his account isn't his money was really stretching things. If it's in our accounts, it ours, and we are generating and paying rake off our money.

Hi bhoylegend:

That's fine. I just wanted to show that in poker there are often exceptions to what is generally thought, and that players are often trying to do things which will increase their EV even if the increase is small.

Best wishes,
Mason

Very nice posts and points Mason, well put

I will be honest, i am affected by this a lot, BUT.....

Despite that i dont hate spins, i hate the time they introduced it and the "settings" of that format.

Wanted to write wall of text at first, but lot of important things were stated already, so ill just bump some i guess.

And i actually really like this one, never thought about it (and i was also loosing player at first, never imagined that i will win a lot in poker, which they are advertising EVERYWHERE):
I am really missing one thing here. I can understand that if ure MTT(SnG) or even HU(SnG/CG - low/mid stakes) player u cant probably understand what i will talk about. But playing 4-5 quite solid players in 6max game who are (or most of them) playing poker for living is my daily bread and butter. And i generate SHI*load of rake there with very small contribution of fishes money.
It seems like instead of dealing with problems known for years mentioned before in the thread (such as HU CG/SnG lobby and so on )they just introduce new format which will be kind of unplayable for regs.

Longstoryshort:
1) Overraked
2) Bad multipliers structure
3) Inb4 stars are rigged 1000x more :P , games are not tracked. It is way harder to sell someone poker is skill game if first thing he sees after table pops is "slot machine".
4) The timing is gross, doesnt apply to me that much, but i understand all the chasers.
5) At the moment (i imagine mostly non SnG) regs are excited, because they play 2 fishes on each table and sun is shining. Wanna see you in future, esp. if they bring up skill ranking which might come, considering that star next to each nick. Then it will be unbeatable for sure.

For Daniel: Please try to be more hypocritical next time.

Regards

too funny

So there are approx. 300 SNE guys per year. They average lets say on the high end 100K in net rake for the site. so 30million dollars/year. Im willing to bet this new format has prob made close to that already. Although maybe not the best end game, for new ownership, they have shown they are all about short term gaines, and im sure they are achieving this.

http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/10/int...okerstars.html

PokerStars quickly became the biggest firm in the world’s most important market and now has estimated annual revenue of $1.4 billion, A bit outdated but prob a reasonable estimate. SO SNE guys account for 0.21% of total revenue

shortsighted view.

But i guess most people who think spin n go are fine barely played them or ran really hot.

i might be an idiot but isnt it 2.1% not 0.21% still i get what you are saying.

Yeah but they also start tables etc so they are accountable for a lot more of stars profits for sure.

LOL @ anyone standing up for these games, clearly you people aren't in touch with the current state of poker if you think its okay for Amaya to keep making these bull-headed moves. I don't want to hear any of you complain when you start noticing the effects trickle-down to your own specific game-types. Though I'm sure A LOT of you supporting spin&go's ITT just can't beat online poker these days and thus you want to take every opportunity to cut down people who still can.

Supporting spin&go's = supporting online poker's deathblow

300x100k is $30m but take off 71-78% of that for those continuing sne and 58-63% for those achieving it and its suddenly not so high

He already accounted for that, it is $181k rake paid to hit SNE, he assumed avg paid rake of $100k to Pokerstars per SNE.

Nobody is getting 78% too.

Is the rake for the $1 games 7%? So to make $30mil worth of rake in a year from those, PokerStars would people need to play ... 428,571,429 of the $1 games? Like over 428 million?

And then right now they've got a promo going on where if you deposit $25, you get 5 free Spin & Go tickets worth $7 - and then depending on how many games people are able to win, like 25 games worth of rake is only $1.75, so anyone who's playing these Spin & Gos with money they deposited via the promo ... wouldn't they to have their $25 last long enough to play like 100 of the $1 games, just to cover the costs of their own promo? Before actually showing a net profit via rake?

Although, people making fresh deposits into the system, or new deposits, and people showing new interest in poker and stuff are great - guess I was just trying to show how many people playing low stakes games it might to generate $30mil in rake?

PS Zoom's a great game - if people like Spin & Gos, you might like Zoom too ... lots of fun

Not a pro nor a casino operator - I am just a rec fish. And i sincerely doubt I would play this game other than as curiosity. Definitely not as a semi-reg or main game.

I think the idea is genius for PS. Not sure if it has been said but if I were running a B&M room I would use this to try to get SNGs to start running where they aren't a regular feature. I definitely think it would attract people to the room plus the high rake...winner winner. It is the Bad Beat Jackpot on steroids. And when the game goes as 100x announce it to the room, have the roulette scoreboard of historical payouts, put the winner's pic up with a huge check like they do with Slots....all that crap. Asking the house to make less money is a pretty worthless endeavor.

at the end the new format will attract new players or deposits as they put quite a few dollars on promoting it (7$ free for 25 deposit), I think also the SNE should be happy for the new money in...
Poker community has some issues but I think we cannot divide profit players against recs, it would be great to get back to when also new players could have made a score some times (even two in a year) to keep them/us happy

Probably SNE petition and Daniel comments where a bit too muc based on self motivation

The thing I find weird about this is that PokerStars have earlier done stuff to try to 'spread out' the money as with changes to contributed rake instead of dealt and top 15% cashing in tournaments/180s.

But Spin & Gos are extremely top heavy and fun players loses money faster than ever before and the lucky few might have a pretty high cash out rate. Effectively taking money out of the poker economy which is bad for all parties right?

Spin & Gos pay a third of the field, just like most other single table sit & gos. There are no icm considerations, so they might be easier to understand for new players.

The only games I think the spin & gos will affect are the 6-max hyperturbos. To me it seems much more fun to play a hyper turbo with just 3 players and have a shot at winning 1000 times the buy in, compared to playing against 6 players and having a shot at 3 times the buy in. And the 6-maxs last longer too.

But I have a hard time to see anyone giving up cash games to play spin&go all the time.

How many people will keep depositing into the site once they realize that the Spingos are overraked and is essentially lottery?

SNEs are not happy about the new money in because the format is ungrindable,
Do you think the pros would complain if they could make a living playing these games? They are the best players, they have no problem following fish to any reasonable format, ever.
The issue is that the games are lottery and you cant play lottery for a living.

A third of the field wins 67% of the prize pool 75% of the time and extremely rarely 100+bi. What I mean with top heavy is that like a tournament (but way worse) only very few wins those big prizes while most are just paying for it, draining money from the fun players much faster than any other variant of NLHE PokerStars has to offer.

The logic in this post is infallible.

I really like Mason's idea of giving the promo money to the worst players instead of the best.
1. The Pennsylvania state lottery makes $1-2 billion in profit every year charging at least 35% rake, so your thesis that people don't want to play the lotto may need a little more thought.
2. Not all the best players are complaining. In a poll, how many people who play STTs exclusively would make the NVG list of top 100 poker players?
3. Pokerstars isn't in business to provide jobs.

1. Im saying that it's wrong to market lottery as poker, and PS has not been marketed as lottery/casino site. So they will lose some players when they introduce these aggro gambling formats.
2. Who are these top players that like Spingo? Not NVG top 100, people who currently crush sngs or cash.
3. Obv not..

Well these have peaked my curiosity indeedeth