http://www.pokernews.com/news/2014/1...ease-19706.htm

Let's take it to the test and see how many gifted players will climb up to the highest stakes on stars next year. None, I predict

I hope pokerstars will sink like the Titanic, with Daniel "this rake increase is good" Negreanu on the deck. Eventually the poker spirit will survive and new companies will provide better conditions for poker grinders.

With regard to the poker dream that Phil Galfond talks about:

Most regulars among us already realized that online poker now became a waste of time, compared to having a normal job.
That said, thousands of degenerate slot machine addicts think they found a way to beat slot machines, which is why they keep coming back to casinos.

Will losing poker players keep coming back to pokerstars after the recent changes?
Will the rake increase affect their poker dream?

For the sake of online pokers' future, I hope it will

I get it, people are mad at PS. Assuming they fail, it would kill poker imo.

Also lol @ most "regs" have quit poker for a normal job.

Not sure we really need another thread about this but one interesting move Amaya could do is offer a very high rakeback for only its most frequent players. Perhaps an amount that would equate to paying the prior rake.

Most recreational players do not even realize the rake being taken nor do most seek rakeback. This way they can still charge absurd rake without punishing their best players.

And what do you think that the player pool of "regs" looks like?

A) high rollers grinding 25/50 and higher, who can afford taking a $10 000 hit annually
B) regs grinding $1/$2 heads up cash (or lower) who are now struggling to find any edges at all, and losing half of their profit annually

I estimate that group B is at least 30x larger than group A, probably more

What will happen is that none of the medium stakes guys will find an edge to move up in stakes, and the games will die slowly

The group of break even medium stakes players are now losing players, and yes indeed, they are better off quitting poker straight away and finding a normal job instead.

What should motivate them to improve as players? Another rake increase in 2015?

I grind husngs and hu cash and both have become a complete waste of time based on 1 decision by greedy staff members running pokerstars.

To give you an idea of what this will cost the regulars

http://www.bluff.com/news/pokerstars...ffected-61919/

Quit studying about poker, and go get a job as a cashier at McDonalds

At least it gives you a steady income

I think the idea is that the Isildur and durrr's of poker inspire people to deposit thinking they can do it to. These people are going to be bad players (and stay bad for the most part)

I hope I don't get flamed for this as I'm asking a legitimate question. Maybe someone can clear some things up.

Aren't the worst changes for rake minor?

Hyperturbos... Memorize a some push/fold charts and most people can learn these. Probably not the most skillful game. Maybe not a bad thing to reduce volume of these through higher rake.

Knockout tournaments. No thoughts on the rake increases.

Increase in rake cap for 25/50+ HU to $2 and $1 for all other stakes. From what I remember HU winrates were huge. At 5knl the rake looked like nothing compared to the rake paid at lower stakes. Couldn't the higher rake disuade some of the bumhunters who most see as a big problem?

Rake cap increase for 5knl+ from $3 to $5 with 5+ players no increase at lower stakes. $5 rake on pots worth 100's or thousands of dollars. From the perspective of someone who played much lower stakes where we paid a much higher proportion of rake compared to the pots won... frequently seeing winning players not winning more than they were raking... I always thought it was a bit unfair.

Spin n gos... nobody likes these anyway.

Top Online Poker Pros In A Lather Over Pokerstars Rake Increase

PM sent to a poker buddy of mine ...

Wes:

Apparently there have been a lot of changes at Pokerstars since Isai Sheinberg (and his family) sold out to Amaya - and a lot of the top pros aren't the least bit happy.

http://www.pokernews.com/news/2014/1...ease-19706.htm

I haven't paid much attention to this since I'm not a pro and I don't play poker for a living, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for the pros. So-called "professional" poker players are at least partly responsible for their predicament since they ruined the game with their insistence on using tracking software and every other "advantage" they could exploit in order to gain an edge on amateurs. Some of these pros even had the gall to claim that they "deserved" to win because they "worked harder" to perfect their game.

As if all that wasn't enough, there's the systematic cheating problem that none of them - with the possible exception of Todd Witteles and Haley Hintz - seemed to care about. As cheating among the top pros was exposed and the game was being systematically ruined by unrestrained greed, the collective reaction seemed to be a yawn and the unspoken equivalent of: "Ho hum, who cares? Only amateurs and 'losers' give a damn about cheating. All us 'good' players know how to play around the cheaters, so big blanking deal!" Even the sites themselves (including Pokerstars!) failed to go after the cheaters trying to brush the problem under the rug hoping most players either wouldn't notice - or would ignore it. (Apparently, trying to go after blatant cheaters like Nick Grudzein would have cut into profits, so it was better to claim that Nick had been "thoroughly investigated" and there was no reason for fleeced players to be worried ...)

So the net result of all this willful blindness and indifference is that the "fish" have left the game - they were driven away. Suddenly there are no longer any fish, minnows (or even plankton) in the poker ocean. Now it's just sharks trying to eat their fellow sharks. Now that the pampered treatment they were accustomed to, (i.e. 100 percent rake back and paid tournament buy-ins), has been taken away, the pros are suddenly crying like spoiled little girls.

Amaya, far from being out to "destroy" online poker, is likely trying a new business strategy. What they are attempting to do is see if they can make online poker more attractive to the much larger pool of casual players - the "non-professional" recreational players who don't do this for a living. They reason that there are probably a lot more of these "casual" players than there are "pros" who have ruined the game. Their strategy is to try and bring the true amateur players back. Las Vegas B&Ms tried a similar tack when they decided it was a long term (more profitable) business strategy to try and make Vegas more "family friendly" rather than a mecca exclusively for professional gamblers. Time will tell if this is the smarter business strategy.

Of course, the "pros" are going to be upset if they can no longer use their tracking software and bum hunt weaker players. What a blanking tragedy! (It's going to be fun reading all the "pros" on 2+2 angrily telling me that I can go straight to hell. Ha! Ha!)

Hopefully stars listen.

your view of hyperturbos or hu cap is really wrong , as for spin n gos it s really bad considering player might have to play those because of the lack of actions in other formats and the rake that make regbattle ev- most of time

Amaya is out for exactly 1 thing: maximizing their own profit.

The way they accomplish this, is by stealing players' edges (rake increase) which will eventually kill all games and kill player traffic in the years to come

The first step in the plan was to purchase full tilt and exterminate their only competitor, giving them a monopoly on the poker market.

The second step is to increase rake to levels that match the rake of other (smaller) poker sites, creating very marginal edges, but not bad enough for players to justify chosing a site like Ipoker

Even though society misunderstands poker in general, people started realizing that smart poker players had an edge and can consistently make money in this game.

That intelligent image of poker will disappear in years to come, because smart players can now no longer find decent edges. Online poker will now become a game "against the house" where the house always wins and you can break even at best. And more likely, lose all your money in the process of trying to improve

Online poker will now draw the same dumb gamblers that believe they can beat slot machines, because this is the audience that amaya will draw with their new rake increase. Not one smart gambler will take these edges

Pokerstars will die from a slow death, which I encourage because of their greedy policy

Let's hope that online poker in general will survive

If this is true the games would remain beatable despite rake increase.

The rake increases hits the hardest for the marginal/breakeven multitablers and as a result is very bad for the company.

-------------------------

Characteristics of the depositing fish:

-Necessary to keep poker economy going by making deposits
-Pay little rake per dollar won (negative winnings)
-Only indirectly in the companies interest but still play the most crucial role in the whole equation
-Rake increases don't hurt these guys much as they lose their money quickly

Characteristics of the big winners:

-Rake increases don't hurt these guys much. Their bb/100 is large enough to take it.
-Very little rake paid per dollar won
-Will benefit from rake increases indirectly because the marginal winners are forced out so there bb/100 increases

Characteristics of the marginal/breakeven multitabler:

-Make up most of the volume and ensure game liquidity (what makes stars the largest site?)
-Pay the most rake per dollar won (ideal for the site)
-Just barely able to get by irl with the current winnings
-Small rake increases makes them go in the red and as such forces them out

----------------------------

By making these rake increases, stars is pushing out the marginal winners. The marginal winners - or even breakeven - are stars' best customers alongside depositing fish. These two playertypes are the main source of revenue for the company. The depositing fish is necessary to keep the marginal winners interested, while the marginal winners (usually multitablers) are necessary to keep the rake revenue stream as large as possible.

What happens then when the marginal winners are forced out?

-Less rake for the company (Hurts net profits - hurts the shareholders)
-Larger skill divide in the player pool
-The big winners benefit and their bb/100 increases.
-Less game liquidity and the site loses market share in terms of players online

------------------------------

Then why make the rake increases?

Baffles me, but is surely motivated by the thought of increasing profits quickly. The guys at amaya have previously run the ongame network to the ground and may be heading down the same path with stars.
If they to convert stars into an online casino primarily, they may be able to capitalize on their currently depositing fish, but surely only in the short term. The allure of "the biggest pokersite" and "we are poker" will be gone and so will the depositing fish.

Edit:
This is not a summary of the article. I've simply expressed my thoughts (before reading the article).

I don't think any competitive multitabler needs time to figure out that the games are unprofitable now, or very marginally profitable at best

This should cause serious damage to pokerstars' image. And in my case, irreversible damage.

You can't pull off this kind of moves on regulars who have been loyal to you for years, and expect them to still respect you

Not that he cares, but I lost all my respect for Daniel Negreanu as well

He's no longer a poker ambassador, but a greedy businessman talking for his own wallet

Galfond, as usual, has it 100% correct.

Amaya can spend as much as it wants selling the game, but the real engine of growth is word of mouth. I can't tell you how many times I have plugged the old PS to people (which I consistently referred to as the best run company on the planet), and the game of poker in general. Now? Even if the game still is maybe beatable for a few bucks over the long term, I would never recommend PokerStars to anyone.

I currently live overseas, but I will tell friends in my native NJ the same thing when the time comes.

I was a long term loser to the rake, but kept chasing the dream. This latest increase in rake -- coupled with how it was handled -- has removed my action from the game. I self-banned from cash games on AmayaStars last week. They should be concerned about this. I have taken money off the tables for years, but never more than what PS had subsequently then taken from me.

I was basically paying PS to be a walking billboard for their product.

No more.

The elasticity of demand for online poker is directly tied to its perception as a skill game for the vast majority of its regulars. Making me (and others like me) feel like I'm playing a pit game -- and being treated as a degenerate gambler who will take whatever they send my way and like it -- will have long term consequences for them.

I have no interest in playing a pit game. Never have, never will, and accordingly have stopped doing so.

+1 (apart from living in NJ)

The best thing they can do long therm for their site is making anonymous tables all around

They will lose trafic from reg grinders but will heavily increase profits from recs when the new policy get known.

If they do nothing about stopping all the help programs online poker will die.

The thing is that `pro`grinders believe recs are stupid surely some are but most is not idiots who can`t see they lose to grinders who barely know the rules of poker but only push the buttons their programs say.

Now if everyone are playing in an equal playingfield without help programs I would insta start playing MS cash again, and im sure a lot of other recs would too.

Sorry for bad spelling

And listen to this guy A really good post imo

Thought this was a joke at first.

Obviously those that use tracking software are on average working harder than those that aren't. The same can be said about those that are reading books, watching training videos, getting coaching, etc.

If you're neglecting the best methods to get good at online poker, don't pretend to be as working as hard as those of us that aren't. Of course we deserve to win more than you, our EV is higher due to having a better understanding of the game.

So-called "professional" poker players are at least partly responsible for their predicament since they ruined the game with their insistence on using tracking software and every other "advantage" they could exploit in order to gain an edge on amateurs. Some of these pros even had the gall to claim that they "deserved" to win because they "worked harder" to perfect their game.


This is just wrong. It's not pro players that insist on using huds. In fact if there was a way to make those things go away, I am sure there would be a majority of pros that were for it.
Those things exist because it's a way to make money for the companies that sell those.

Sad thing is he wrote it once apparently in a pm and then typed it all out again here without realizing how stupid the comment is. I'm assuming he typed it though instead of copy paste because using advanced technology like that is just cheating.

Imagine someone working hard at something and then expecting to reap the benefits of that hard work. Unthinkable.

Anyone who has "worked harder" at perfecting their nvg game has already put ACL on their ignore list. He specializes in making points he thinks are incredibly insightful about things he knows nothing about and using a thousand times more words than necessary.

GL getting to 2550 now purely online seriously

FYP. Rake hasn't changed for non heads up games bellow 5knl right?

This post fails consistently from beginning to end. I particularly like the "intelligent poker player" image part. To the general public poker players are not sly and intellectually superior, most people think of poker players as scumbag cheaters that are untrustworthy and perpetually broke. And they aren't that wrong.

Doesn't mean he's not correct anyway though.