^^^ This

Well said Sir

EDIT: as well a complaining to the UKGC, it might be worthwhile sending an email to the CMA as stated in this article the article was 2016 but the CMA is still there).
http://www.pokernewsreport.com/cma-t...er-sites-20988

A tournament at DTD this weekend was advertised as PPL$ buyin only
£140+£15 buyin, £75,000 guaranteed.
It got 239 entries across three Day1 games. Two on Saturday and a turbo today.


https://www.dusktilldawncasinonottin...om/results.php


Anyone got any thoughts as to why this might have struggled to make the guarantee?

lol I wonder.

I played some 1/2 cash today in London and this story was brought up. 1 guy said he went to DTD 4 or 5 times a year for 8 years but will not go there anymore.

How can I find that facebook thread please?

So here’s a timeline and post that the UKGC can (and in all probability are) investigate – a few of us put the following timeline and summary together from our thoughts and the thread/social media activity which pretty much sums up how this has all come about and who has been involved –

October 2016 – concept of Party Poker Live (PPL) introduced and announced with Neil Barrett taken on as “MD of PPL” (not sure if employed by DTD or GVC as you can’t be MD of a Company which hasn’t been named until June 2017).

January 2017 – Tom Waters, MD of Party Poker/GVC (PPGVC) announces Party Poker Live event launch including Millions for 2017 in somewhat of a media frenzy (https://poker.partypoker.com/en/blog...oker-live.html) (https://www.uspoker.com/blog/partypo...er-tour/16026/)

February 2017 – John Duthie joins “Party Poker Live” as President, confirms Tom Waters (https://poker.partypoker.com/en/blog/john-duthie.html) – again presumably must be employed by PPGVC or DTD at this stage

June 2017 – DTD Online Ltd is name changed by Rob Yong and his two friends to “Party Poker Live Ltd” (PPLL) – maybe Neil and John are now employed by this Company now that it has a legal presence under its own name
(https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/c...filing-history)

October 2017 – Party Poker announces Party Poker Live events schedule for their Millions Season 2 throughout 2018 https://poker.partypoker.com/en/blog...-schedule.html)

November 2017 – towards the end of this month various people from all these parties go to the Caribbean and are put into live events there including Tom Waters the MD of PPGVC who plays and cashes in two events (a 4th for a nice chunk in the finale, well done Tom)!

December 2017 – Party Poker Live dollars (PPL$) crypto-currency is announced in somewhat of another media frenzy (http://www.flushdraw.net/news/partyp...r-live-system/) which allows players to use PPL$ for entries into live events, hotel and travel expenses

2018 – throughout 2018, players begin building up PPL$ and BRS who have had a close relationship with DTD through staking players in live events there (and also therefore PPLL) are mobilised to build up a pool of PPL$ which can be used to offset overlay risk by a % going to player, % going to BRS and % to GVC/DTD/PPLL either directly or indirectly. BRS may have already been involved (and possibly other stables) with DTD in a similar arrangement to offset live event overlay risk

Motives –

1) Increased market share and rapid growth of PPL concept
2) Increased share price
3) Able to offer huge guarantees and therefore benefit from marketing and promotion
4) Enables strong competition to Pokerstars and other industry heavyweights
5) Introduction and management of new crypto-currency to support live events
6) Ability to offset overlay risk by using stable(s) to put players into events with PPL$
7) Central pool of PPL$ available for any free entries who the entities wish to put in
8) Pro players/Ambassadors can be recruited for marketing and given multiple entries

The concept and elements of PPL and PPL$ were obviously born and raised through various parts of the timeline above by those entities and the people involved, with an expected “there will be no comeback” outlook due to all parties being happy.

Clearly though, the “bottom” of the crypto-currency pyramid of players has started to collapse, in that at least for the very last Millions event at DTD, far too many stable “horses” were dumped into the events there, many who had zero or little in PPL$. In doing this for such a high profile event, questions started to be asked by non-stable live and online players. Live satellites were awash with horses and it was clear that there was collusion where multiple stable players were on the same tables. The events themselves were littered with horses including one who won the opening event and some who had multiple £5.3k entries despite having no PPL$ themselves. Play was a mixture of standards however in many occasions staked Pros and horses used multiple entries recklessly in their attempts to build initial stacks, in the knowledge that they could just re-enter. This play was inexplicable to recs like us and many other players, especially from perceived PP professionals and from players with stable-branded shirts. Of course, there were casualties from such play. People started to realise that the “crypto-currency” was in fact a type of “house currency” and far from independent. Questions started to be asked about the stable(s) – how do you operate? are you in bed with any of these parties? how have so many people been put in by you? are there kick-backs? If so, who to? Etc etc etc etc. Some ex-horses (and some current!) spilled beans about collusion, playing on tables together both online and live, disclosing hands etc. Some spoke of having no PPL$ yet getting into events. Others spoke of PPL$ being “sweeped” into a central pool. Many other points have been raised about the nature of this currency, its operation, management and origins.

So now we find a position where people are uneasy about PPL$ and for good reasons. From my own perspective, I believe that this is all incredibly bad for Poker in general for many reasons –

1) There is no level-playing field at live events where PP Pros and staked players have multiple entries as they can take educated risks and knock out rec players like me with inferior hands or draws. Ok YES I hear a few of you saying “you want them in it” but no I do not, actually I would prefer less of them! Just because I am a 60/40 favourite doesn’t necessarily mean I want to be outdrawn by somebody who is thinking “oh I’ll just go re-enter.” It happened and I lost a lot of money because of it. At least if they were freezeouts they would think twice! As for live satellites, how does it feel when you are sitting there with only a few left to the tickets, with a short stack and four people on your table clearly playing together against you? How does it feel when you go out before the tickets because of this situation of “attack others” and “protect each other?”

2) Collusion online – some of the stories of people witnessing stables playing together and announcing hands etc on the same tables via mobile comms is simply cheating. You can’t do it live….so don’t do it online! I even read of one online satellite having over half a table of horses yaying and neighing to each other via skype! How can innocent players trust PPL$ satellites and MTT’s suspecting that this may be going on at their tables?

3) Transparency – this has all been dealt with in an incredibly covert way. PPGVC, DTD/PPLL, BRS and any other party or person involved should ideally be investigated thoroughly – emails, social media group chats…whatever it takes to get to the bottom of it all. Whilst I appreciate that this is unlikely to happen because of the sheer scale, I for one would really be interested to see as an absolute minimum –

(i) PPGVC, DTD/PPLL, BRS and any other entity’s contracts or agreements relating to joint operations, management or knowledge of PPL and PPL$ (who is legally responsible for what? who manages what? who administers what? What has been formally and legally agreed with the setup and running of PPLL and PPL$, who do the people above work for in PPL?)
(ii) Audit trails of PPL$ won, used, transferred or exchanged for use as buy-ins to live events or kick-back to any of these parties, their staff, contractors, “horses” or whoever, whether directly or indirectly. (In a nutshell, who had free entries to live events, what value was used, where did it come from, did they cash and if so where did any kick-back go).
(iii) How are online and live collusion allegations being dealt with and what plan can/will be put in place to prevent it?
(iv) Guarantees that mean guarantees – in cash. If you have £5m GTD and you get £4m then you put in £1m no questions or complaints, rather than dumping loads of free entries (with kick-back) into it in order to de-risk the events. The guarantee is in this case misleading at best and false at worst.

Until such time that I can be certain that both PPL and online events are “clean” from all this I won’t be playing at either. Personally I think that the OP’s post with words to the effect of “Shady dealings at Party Poker Live,” the Lipo Fund’s post and a few select other posts in this thread say what everyone is thinking. It is merely the tip of the iceberg, the smoke from the inferno and I for one would like it sorted out sooner rather than later for the good of the poker community. All everyone wants is fair tournaments at great venues and locations, with great value.

Be lucky!

JP

Ace High Poker Group

That’s a heck of a write up Mr Joe Public.
Most of it seems pretty accurate too, although there are some points that you have made where you have turned supposition into fact.
There is, for example, no proof that a % of the staked players winnings found it’s way to PPL/DTD.
Nor is there any clear evidence that PPL$ were produced from thin air to give to players.

There are obviously reasons why those suppositions might be given credence though.

Moving forward though - your posts, and LipoFund’s would carry more weight if we knew who you are and could be clear that your work on this is independent.

DTD can have no doubts about my ID,
http://pokerdb.thehendonmob.com/player.php?a=r&n=210781

I was a frequent visitor, until they decided to cite unpublished Ts&Cs to deny me a £6k added value prize.

lol

Various different overlay-reducing staked in players revealing these deals to others should be proof enough for anyone. I spoke with one such player at the April 2017 Millions (who I had known for 10 years and trust) and he confirmed Rob Yong would get a share of anything he cashed.

QUOTE:
I would like to hear from - and also maybe the "President" of Partypoker Live, John Duthie (although that in itself poses the question, is JD paid/employed/contracted by Party Poker Live Limited (Rob Yong 80%, Anthony Minnis 10%, Nick Whiten 10% as per filing) or GVC/Party Poker? Reason being, before all this kicked off, I and I presume many others thought that the announcement "John Duthie joins PartyPoker Live as its President" some time ago meant that he was pretty high up in Party Poker which is not actually the case is it - back then "Party Poker" was simply "Party Poker" to people like me.

Remember also John Duthie did public interviews with people like Joey Ingram - did the interviewers even know he wasn't a part of PartyPoker?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lZgIykzwlA

Check out this video's description:
"partypoker President John Duthie & Chairman Mike Sexton sit down in Barcelona to discuss the partypoker MILLIONS tour."

edit: Do partypoker staff even know these are separate entities?

If anyone can find further evidence of Party attempting to make it look like Partypoker Live and Partypoker are one in the same please post.

Tom Waters, Managing Director of partypoker commented (QUOTE) “We are thrilled that John has joined us at the beginning of this journey. Very few people in the world have made such a significant contribution to poker and his experience, relationships and understanding of players will be a huge asset to us

https://poker.partypoker.com/en/blog/john-duthie.html

FINAL QUOTE

The challenge of the new role itself is exciting. What drew me to partypoker? Well, there’s a gap in the market, no doubt about it. Worldwide poker events have been lacklustre and something needs to change or they’ll fade into oblivion. - John Duthie

https://poker.partypoker.com/en/blog...oker-live.html

Hello,
looking at the Party Poker Live LTD financial statement for the period from the 1st July 2016 to 31st December 2017, there is no voice regarding income derived from active trading. This should be due the fact that PPL$ have been introduced after the 31st of December 2017 (am I right?).

In the Party Poker Live Dollars T's & C's it states the following:

Quote:

PP LIVE Dollars have no financial value and are non transferable. In the event of a player not being able to use his PP LIVE Dollars there will be no cash alternative

Ok, but what is the reason of having an online currency which is backed up by real cash, that players, who paid in cash, cannot convert back?
Even crypto currencies now a days can be traded for real currencies.

I am assuming that if the next Financial Statement from Party Poker Live LTD does show some sort of income derived from anything apart from fixed assets, they actually made money. Question is: from what? from trading PPL$$ for actual cash which, by definition, they should have no financial value ? It looks to me a big limitation of rights for customers, because they HAVE to spend PPL$$$ to try and win real cash, while Part Poker Live LTD could (in theory) show a profit in their balance sheet?

Anyway, currently, as per the financial statement, the company is running in loss, and the 14th May they filed for a Mortgage Debenture for the value of £50,000

I guess we could see clearer when the next statement will come out

I have never seen so many well written and laid out posts from so many new accounts its almost like someone is sitting in an office somewhere writing these out to trash their competitors, i mean really get their point across.

Very worrying stuff. Reading all this thread and mixing it to my own experiences + Live$$$ seemingly unsustainable guaranteeds failing quickly despite lots of last moment marketing and added seats: WPT overlayed, CPP certainly doing the same but with far higher numbers if not backing more horses alongside sponsored pros.

All this makes me feel PartyPoker is currently showing much symptoms from Full Tilt Poker + UltimateBet poker. Really hope that we are not seeing another Black Friday should PartyPoker either claim they're not responsible of live$$$ should their plan go horribly wrong or this case combined with effects of legislation changes and and other market changes (including effects Brexit will make their to their capability to operate in Europe) make entire GVC Holdings to go down and bankrupt. GVC really don't seem financially stable and strong enough with their recent acquisitions and poor profitability.

There seems to be some belief that names of people in the poker industry cannot appear in critical posts on 2+2. That is simply not true and is disproven innumerable times over the years in various NVG threads. The list of poker players and poker industry people who have been criticized, some quite harshly, is endless. Ray Bitar, Howard Lederer, Chris Ferguson, Phil Ivey, Daniel Negreanu, Phil Hellmuth, and countless others.

Of course, there are bounds which critical posts must stay within. Generally speaking, comments related to their roles as poker players or industry people is allowed. Saying Ray Bitar was a lousy CEO and cost poker players millions of dollars is perfectly acceptable. But saying Ray Bitar was an axe-murderer, in the absence of some evidence, would not be acceptable.

Maybe the confusion stems from the 2+2 rule which prohibits identifying private information (such as their real-life name) of people who post on 2+2. Identifying/doxing or attempting to identify/dox 2+2 posters is not allowed.

I have heard allegations that competitors in the Live Arena have done this. And to be honest that is poor form if you are a competitor.

Nearly every source that has reached out to me fear being banned from Live venues in the UK so they want their names not revealed. That is understandable and it would be good form from DTD to say that anyone discussing this matter won't be banned.

But until a statement is released by the parties in question it's natural that people are going to share their experiences, speculate and be fearful of the current state of their funds.

I would much prefer the people under the microscope come forth with a statement rather than go the gaming commission route as this can cause unintended consequences. At this point I believe players funds can be made whole and if I was working for PPL I think I'd know exactly what I'd offer the consumers to put everyone at ease while at the same time keeping PPL$ still running. Once the gaming commissions get involved all bets are off. If PPL gets shutdown by them where are the funds going to come from? Maybe Rob Yong would do the right thing but he has no future incentive to do the right thing as he's put out of business or facing fines that would keep him out of the 2k-4k games for the foreseeable future.

But if those under question don't do something to put this matter to bed than the gaming commissions are all we have. The ball is in their court.

This kind of nonsense makes me wonder if we should just ban all new accounts from this thread. And I'm not referring to the people you've "called out".

You're calling out other people for dropping in for their first post, when you've got all of 20 (every one of them in this thread) and think those 4 posts you've made in <15 minutes is in some way helpful. I mean, those last two posts are you quoting the same post twice in just 13 minutes.

Enough already. Not just you, but all of you guys on both "sides" that have decided to jump in here with new accounts and snipe at each other. None of us care about all this ridiculousness between you. If you want to dispute a point that was made, then do so. But we can all see your join dates and post counts just fine for ourselves, thanks.

It's hard enough already to track what's really going without having to wade through this nonsense. If you want to attack each other, go somewhere else to do it.

Thanks Bobo for keeping a sharp eye and a tight grip on this thread.

Obviously this topic is likely to bring up new accounts. I'm sure that many are dummy accounts as they fear putting their name forth... and by many accounts with good reason as they fear being banned from not just DTD but all casino's in the UK as they perceive that DTD has this type of influence. Some are legitimately new posters who were steered to 2+2 due to this very thread.

Surely some are competitors who are jumping on the bandwagon not with altruistic motives but rather to kick the competitor when he's down. This isn't right and I'd love to expose this subset. Players want a fair shake and players want transparency.

The implication that all of the new accounts are trolls from competitors is so dumb.

All gaming companies will have the contacts to expedite this within the UKGC and other licensing bodies (which I have it on good authority they already have). They have little need to do this on 2p2.

Remember the poker boom was between 2003-2011, so nearly 7 years since the peak and since when 2p2 was at its peak too, meaning that anyone 25/26 and under was below 18. All forums interaction has dropped off a cliff during that time.

And of course we have various anecdotes of what people involved in BRS have threatened to do to people who speak out.

Yes, sadly there have been a number of childish and insulting posts that has diluted the discussion some what. But the allegations regarding the stables, leaderboards and the uncertainty over PPL$ are all very real.

Lets all move to 888

I am travelling to play CPP Main Event (i had tickets and hotel from long time ago).

With all this issues going on, do you think would make sense to play day 1C? Partypoker need 2k entries to cover guaranteed, so if half of these stories are true, day 1c should be a shove festival, with any two cards and no fear for many players. I am not one of these players, i will pay entry from my pocket.

Should be super easy game with people shoving random garbage. By all means take this profitable spot if you can.

Hey Dinko, this is a valid concern as my first post dealt with exactly this situation, being someone who pays for themselves. It really depends on who is out there though because Nottingham had many UK stable players in it and the CPP presumably after this has come out will not have lots of players sent over using PPL$ and therefore will not be awash with staked or house players. There will still be PP backed Pros/Ambassadors and whether they are on multiple bullets again (whether using PPL$ or not), you will have to play against them too.

Personally I will be very interested to see how all PPL events do after this has all erupted, especially considering the "available pool" of staked/house players will have been severely diminished with the "tap turned off." I would imagine that it will be harder to hit the live millions and online $20m guarantees without the full strength of the players being staked online and live to inflate the numbers. I guess we will see.

I am very surprised that no news outlets have commented on the issues as it appears there is a media blackout on all the mainstream poker news outlets (maybe other people know better than I do on that one though).

In any case Dinko, I wish you luck and hope that you do well at the CPP! At the very least, enjoy yourself and have a great time

Be lucky!

JP

Best marketing I have seen in a long time. I don't like it (due to the PP-situation), however credit for an unorthodox approach.

I wonder what BRS's new official name will be now that its purpose has been served as a PP/PPL scapegoat.

Their top players are still going strong so they aren't "out of business" or "cutoff".


I personally boycotted the switchover to partypoker when it initially happened, this is because I saw many good players going over for the value that I figured all of the "bad" players would still be left at stars! Also the software has only just been upgraded to be on level with pokerstars and this was a massive factor for me. I am also curious as to how this negative publicity will affect their numbers.