Russ Hamilton directly implicated by KGC - Page 3 - Poker News

BS. Barry blamed everything about Russ on "2+2 kids"

Barry was probably paid a good fee from Russ to try and help cover his ass.

Has Barry even posted here since he has Russ on the show?

I'm sure there's no amount of money Russ could have offered to have Barry cover up for him.

From the MSNBC article:

Quote:

Greenstein applied his mathematical perspective to the situation in a posting on Two Plus Two forum: “Before I talked to (him), I thought it was more than 95 percent likely that he was involved in cheating. … Now I think it’s more than 99 percent that he knows people who cheated well enough to transfer money with them, but I think it’s less than 50 percent that he actually cheated or knew that the people were cheating at the time.”

In an e-mail interview with msnbc.com, Greenstein said he believes it is likely that the KGC’s investigation will confirm that the crime was carried out by an employee or employees of the former ownership of the site — whether it be ieLogic, Excapsa or eWorld Holdings —not the professional poker players who lent their expertise to the site’s developers.

‘A bunch of kids ... who jump to conclusions’
“There is no evidence to the contrary, except for some circumstantial evidence against (him) and a bunch of kids on Two Plus Two who jump to conclusions every time they are given a name,” he said. “… I'm not saying these people (the poker pros) are clean. I don't know for sure. But just because someone's name is associated with a company where there was cheating, it doesn't mean that the person was involved.”

He's made many posts since July.

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09-29-2008 , 09:07 PM

#52

1p0kerboy

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Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 11,797

Here's the brief article on Cardplayer:

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news...-cheating-scam

I'm still scratching my head as to why 'new' UB went through such great lengths in covering everything up. They even were caught lying on several occasions.

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09-29-2008 , 09:14 PM

#53

RioGossiper

banned

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 625

Another interesting observation...Barry Schulman would be one of the bridges in the past burned with Russ (or vice versa).

The cardplayer article has an interesting libelous title (if untrue) "Russ Hamilton was Behind UltimateBet Cheating Scam"

Usually when someone is accused of something serious, like a murder suspect, a publication doesn't say something potentially libelous like "Ernie Scherer III Killed his Parents in Cold Blood" when the case is still pending. Alleged is a very important key word to avoid liability.

Maybe the Schulmans know something we don't as to his alleged guilt? They certainly seem to have an axe to grind allowing this title.

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09-29-2008 , 09:15 PM

#54

Kevmath

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I believe the Shulmans were part of the UB-2 affiliate program, correct?

Quote

09-29-2008 , 09:25 PM

#55

RioGossiper

banned

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 625

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevmath

I believe the Shulmans were part of the UB-2 affiliate program, correct?

This is correct. I'm not certain of the cause of their falling out though, it could certainly be related to the scheme of UB-2.

I am politically neutral here. I don't really know Russ or Barry very well, but enough that I know I have nothing against either. Although I find it amusing that they both act like little children as men in their 50s.

Barry makes me laugh more though. :-)

It's Rosh Hashana, so I doubt we're getting a quote from anyone in their camp tonight. Shana tova.

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09-29-2008 , 09:27 PM

#56

Minor Threat

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Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,371

Barry is jewish?

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09-29-2008 , 09:31 PM

#57

odinscott

banned

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,209

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe Asher

Barry is jewish?

uhhh GreenSTEIN

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09-29-2008 , 09:38 PM

#58

Kevmath

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I'm sure he meant Barry Shulman.

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09-29-2008 , 09:38 PM

#59

odinscott

banned

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,209

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevmath

I'm sure he meant Barry Shulman.

I am ******ed, dont mind me.

carrying on...

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09-29-2008 , 09:40 PM

#60

Minor Threat

veteran

Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,371

no i meant GreenSTEIN. It was a level. OMG i used the word level

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09-29-2008 , 09:43 PM

#61

GrindUnumb

old hand

Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,359

Can someone elaborate on UB-2?

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09-29-2008 , 09:45 PM

#62

MPK

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 548

Quote:

Originally Posted by budblown

Barry didn't really stand up for Russ. Barry just said Russ's side of the story since Russ's lawyer's wouldn't let Russ go on Pokerroad and explain his side of the case.

But now that this has come out do we really know if Russ's lawyer's told him to not go on the show?

Good point, Barry just said it with such conviction that I think he believed it. Just a bad situation

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09-29-2008 , 09:48 PM

#63

odinscott

banned

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,209

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabe Asher

no i meant GreenSTEIN. It was a level. OMG i used the word level

You mean I am not ******ed after all?

oh wait you were leveling, yes I am...

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09-29-2008 , 09:54 PM

#64

MPK

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 548

Quote:

Originally Posted by odinscott

You mean I am not ******ed after all?

Whoa there, don't get ahead of yourself sport.

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09-29-2008 , 10:00 PM

#65

odinscott

banned

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,209

Quote:

Originally Posted by MPK

Whoa there, don't get ahead of yourself sport.

lolz

thanks

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09-29-2008 , 10:05 PM

#66

Shick

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 2,314

I'm not where all the hostility is coming from regarding Barry Greenstein. Poker Road wanted to interview Russ on the show, but then his lawyers told him not to do it. Barry still wanted to get whatever information Russ had about the situation on the show, so he agreed to do the interview and then relay the interview on the show.

I heard the show. Barry certainly didn't come off as an apologist for Russ. He did say that he was less certain that Russ had something to do with the scandal after the interview, but that's about it. He was just trying to get Russ's voice on the air.

So he said the forums were full of a bunch of kids jumping to conclusions, but can you blame him? There are definitely some great posts about the scandal on 2+2 and a lot of posters did a lot of work to uncover information when UB/AP was unforthcoming. But to get to the gems, you often have to wade through a lot of, well, spam.

Go back and listen to the show.

The segment begins at 30:00.

Last edited by Shick; 09-29-2008 at 10:09 PM. Reason: Added time.

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09-29-2008 , 10:07 PM

#67

Mookman5

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 1,244

I love what Annie Duke Said in her interview on 7-10-08 about all this, wonder what she will say now?

Quote:

"Let me go through the history of it. First of all let me just say, it’s kinda hard to explain, there is not actually a superuser account, so let me explain what I mean by that. A superuser account would be an account that was created, that had separate privileges attached to it, right? So it would be an account that was created, so when that account was playing, you would be able to see hold cards. OK? That is not what actually happened in this case, that’s not to say someone couldn’t see hole cards. It’s that it wasn’t that particular account. This person could have logged in, for example your account Ali, and you would have been able to see hole cards. Because they were using a piece of software that allowed them to see hole cards, it wasn’t part of the client"

Quote:

"Let me explain how this works. There was a person associated with…When UltimateBet first formed there was a software company (ielogic?) that developed the software and did all of the marketing for the company. Now because of the way the laws of the United States work, you need to form a company to hold the Brand and the Gaming License. That company reall doesn’t do anything, right? It holds the gaming license basically. That company was called E-World Holdings. Somebody associated with E-World figured out that there was a tool that you used on UB, the tool itself didn’t let you see the hole cards, but they figured out if you developed piece of software , that you could kind of attach this “tool” that it would allow you to get in a datastream that had the hole cards as well. Let me explain this as well. The way the administrative part of the site works, if you are an administrator and you log in to retrieve Hand Histories, you can’t do that until the hand is over right? So the hole card data exists somewhere but it is not viewable by anybody until it gets like “thrown over a fence” until the hand is done it gets “thrown over the fence” and you can access hole card data in the form of HH’s, ok? The thing is that the datastream does exist somewhere. It exists on ALL sites, it has to right? What this person figured out is that they could use, they could develop this piece of software that basically would allow them to get a view into that datastream. OK? Again, this is not the software developer associated with the company developing the software, this is somebody who is associated with another company that figured out that they could develop this piece of software right? Now basically, my understanding is that there is somebody that has to install the software on the server. Now that just sits there, not used at all. OK? Now what happens is, flash forward a couple years, now UltimateBet is going to go public. UB is going to go public and what happens is that to go public they now sorta need to wrap everything together, because a public company has to own the bran and the gaming license, so they buy-out E-World Holdings, So E-World is now completely bought out. The people associated with E-World no longer have a revenue stream, they don’t own anything anymore, OK? Now when that happened this piece of software starts getting exploited. This is where, This is where there is a big faldown on UB.Ok? Because this person had been associated with E-World Holdings, when that person’s account changes, like name changes to the names of accounts, it wasn’t really questioned. Now by the way that is against company policy. Company policy is that you can’t change the name on the account."

Quote:

"So this person, (cheater) had more leeway in terms of you can change the name on this account, or will you make sure this account has a large deposit limit, or don’t question the cashouts. Because a lot of where you find fraud is when there is a large cashout request, the cashout is investigated. This didn’t happen, again this is a big fault on UB. That there were these cashouts happening ,account name changes, and things like that and nobody was like “boy that’s kind of weird” Because this person had such a long relationship with the company that they were not being questioned. That is all happening around December of 2005 or so. Go forward to October 2006. This problem is already happening, then in October of ’06 UIGEA passes and the company does sell to Tokwiro Enterprises. Now Tokwiro owns UB, so these owners didn’t have anything to do with it at all. This is a thing they inherited from a company they bought that was sold to them without the peoples knowledge and by the way the people that were selling this to them also did not know this was going on."

Quote:

"There is a lot of blame, I’m not saying nobody is to blame. This is a situation where procedures should have been followed but were not followed. Those companies are to blame for the procedures not being followed. In other words, these owners inherited the problem, they did not create the problem. That being said they were still treating the person like a friend of the project. That’s a big fall down and they admitted that. They, (Tokwiro) have said that it is ridiculous that they were not checking these things. It was an inherited thing another is this guy, he is a good friend of ours, oh whatever, it is ridiculous. Ultimatebet in no way shape or form is not saying they are not to blame, what they are saying is that the owners of this company did not cheat their customers, which is a very different thing. Now did the cheating occur because of a falldown in terms of following the procedures? Absolutely. But they didn’t cheat their customers, they didn’t develop the software that was going to cheat the customers, they don’t create superuser accounts to cheat their customers, they screwed up though."

Quote:

"This is what I am saying. I am saying is that to some degree there have been problems on every site. There has not been a problem on this scale and this is unique to UltimateBet, but there have definitely been problems on every single site. There are sites in the past that have had issues like the UB problem. Now here is this situation. When you have any large financial market, this includes the stock market, this includes any type of business, there are going to be people who are going to try to cheat it. It is true with Brick and Mortar Casino Poker, we know this. We know that anybody walking into a casino is trying to take advantage of the system and look for an edge. That is just a fact of life.
Did they (Tokwiro) fall down in terms of being proactive on the problem, absolutely, but the fact is that when the problem was discovered this company never once denied it. They admitted there is an issue from the start, they knew there was an issue.
#2 They involved Top, Top people in the online community in terms of data analysis in order to make that investigation completely open.
#3 They certainly involved the regulatory body and,
#4 They refunded every single dime"

Quote:

"When I went to to UB about when stuff was happening in the fall. The was a management change in October. The people who were denying and being completely ridiculous about AP no longer have any involvement with the company at all. There is new management that is in place in October. Now I certainly don’t trust what’s going on with the site at that point. I was looking to leave the brand, actively looking to leave the brand, talking to other companies, ok? I was like I’m not sure if I can trust these people. Now I have had a couple people I really trust say, please don’t make a decision yet, because he people who have come in October are really good people. I was like, I don’t. I can’t, this is ridiculous. I mean there is nobody that hates cheating more than I do, I mean like I can’t e associated and this is just because of the AP thing right? They are like but it is different people; I don’t care if it is different people, I don’t like the fact that UB has any association with AP at this point.
So now obviously there is grumblings in January (2008) and I’m like I’m done, I am leaving, I am just going. So they said to me, please before you make a decision, come down to Costa Rica and talk to the people down there. I was like alright, you know, I guess I owe you that much, I’ve been with the brand a really long time. I went down to Costa Rica and I talked to Paul Leggett who is the COO. This guy is a really good guy and basically they made the investigation completely open to me and that’s what I’m saying. I don’t want this misperception between the way this scandal was handled and what happened with AP. The guys at AP who were running AP at the time of AP were completely ridiculous, they completely denied what happened. It was ridiculous, one of the most obvious cases of ridiculous cheating I’ve ever seen, ok? These people that were alerted to it, yes it was bad they were alerted to it, but the minute they were alerted to it they said there is a problem. And they started investigating it, they never once said “no that’s not true”
So basically they make the investigation open to me, they show me what they are doing in terms of security and really we had a very long talk about integrity and basically what I said to them was that the only way I am going to continue to be involved with the brand was in a situation where I had a whole lot of say of the kind of procedure’s that where done in terms of fraud investigation. In this sense, obviously I am not going to develop security software, like I don’t know how to do that, I am not a software developer. But because they were willing to bring me in terms of the cardroom, when promotions are done I get to ask for reports on things like, is anybody using multiple IP addresses? Is there strange stuff going on with the promotion And things like that where I get to have more visibility into what’s going and when they are talking about you know, the new security center, and the new security procedures, I am actually consulting on it. They were willing to do that and they were willing to make things very open in terms of what was going on, on not just to me by the way, but to the guys at pocketfives and Nat (Arem), who was the one that discovered the problem in the first place and this investigation was done very much in the light of day. Given that they were willing to do that and never ever ever once said no, that was what convinced me because they handled it in a completely different way."

So Annie, did you know in July it was Russ Hamilton?

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09-29-2008 , 10:13 PM

#68

runvnme

adept

Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,080

Quote:

Originally Posted by realwtf

BS. Barry blamed everything about Russ on "2+2 kids"

Barry was probably paid a good fee from Russ to try and help cover his ass.

Has Barry even posted here since he has Russ on the show?

This is ridiculous. Barry went to Russ to trying to get information to the public when Russ Hamilton's name showed up in the trail of money transfers and caused a big stir. He came back with no information but just a real feeling that Russ seemed innocent. It seems he was wrong in that feeling but he didn't feed us any false facts and in my opinion wasn't even really defending Russ at the time. My feeling at the time was just wait for the investigation because their interview turned up nothing. The point he makes about people here jumping to conclusions quickly is not a bad point and it really doesn't make him look bad now. There is more evidence now, plain and simple.

Saying Barry was probably paid a fee to defend Russ is really crossing the line and further proves his point about jumping to conclusions. What amount of money would Barry want to take to defend Russ when results of an investigation would soon be released fairly soon after? Personally I don't think Barry would take any amount of money to risk his reputation and knowingly help people harming the poker industry.

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09-29-2008 , 10:15 PM

#69

Arnold_O

banned

Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 1,536

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevmath

If you're going to make a statement like that (re: hole cards at the WSOP), why not provide some sort of proof instead of throwing darts.

dont understand why u would jump all over him for this. it'd be foolish not to question these things. where there's a will there's a way. when big money is involved you never know what some technician behind the scenes might try to pull off.

no matter what it is you can be certain some crook is gonna try to work an angle. --and it just so happens that the world of poker has more than their fair share of underhanded people.

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09-29-2008 , 10:21 PM

#70

MPK

grinder

Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 548

I don't have any bad feelings for Barry, quite the oppisite. I said I felt bad that he spoke "for" Russ, as people can misunderstand that for defending Russ

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09-29-2008 , 10:24 PM

#71

barryg1

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 584

You guys act like I'm a friend of Russ's. I realize that it's hard to follow all the threads about the scandal, but I was the one who first posted about direct links to Russ sending money out of the sleeplesss account, so that should have made it obvious that I wasn't biased in his favor.

I have seen Russ on three or four occasions in my life, all in a poker room except for the meeting I had with him. I have been given more circumstantial evidence against him since the meeting, but I want this to go to trial so we can all get more facts.

I still stand by my suggestion that we let the investigations go forward. And obviously when I was talking about kids who jump to conclusions I was not talking about the thoughtful ones like Nat who did research. Check out posters like Victor, Mookman5, and realwtf for examples on the other side.

I won't be satisfied if this ends up with Russ being the fall guy, but no court case and no prison time.

And to those who think it hurts my reputation that I said "I thought it was less than 50% likely that Russ was behind this after talking to him, but I was sure he knew (after the fact) who was involved," I can only say I don't get it. My reputation is that I'm honest and I'm fair, and I can't see how this has dented it.

Barry

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09-29-2008 , 10:26 PM

#72

RubbishCards

old hand

Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 1,496

Wow, I think the biggest news here is the fact that Cardplayer are actually reporting it, WTF! Although their article doesn't say anything about how they've sat on this story for months and have pretty much covered up the scandal whilst continuing to advertise UB, but it's nice they've finally decided to report some news.

Quote

09-29-2008 , 10:27 PM

#73

Zappa

banned

Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 958

Quote:

Originally Posted by barryg1

What trial? This scumbag is going to get away with this for sure. Who will prosecute him and for what?? Sounds to me like he's committed the perfect crime.

But what do I know?