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Old 02-03-2012, 05:04 PM   #626
AshleyC
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

Barry when exactly were you planning on repaying the money given that it was 'years ago' that it was loaned to you? I find this almost as outrageous as your current refusal to repay your debt. It was behaviour and attitudes like this that lead to FTP getting into trouble in the first place...
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:08 PM   #627
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by DavidNB View Post
Sorry to word it like this, but you want the US players take all the money where half of it is owed to the ROW players?
If the deal goes through, GBT pays ROW players.

If the deal fails, there are no actors looking out for ROW players. The DOJ holds the only remaining assets, and ROW are not a priority for them.

Sucks for y'all, but its the way it is.

Andrew
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:11 PM   #628
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by ra]\\[dom View Post
DOJ is gonna get 80mil for US players from GBT as they negotiated for that. Whoever has a loan should pay to GBT, otherwise that 80mil number should be adjusted for loans and lowered.

My 2c as a row player who wants this deal to finally happen.
Where does the DoJ say the $80M will be used to pay US players?

Where is news coverage of the GBT/DoJ deal that reports the deal says the DoJ will use money from GBT or from BF seizures to pay US players?

And while you're at it, where is a quote from the deal documents or from a DoJ source that says the DoJ will guarantee that all US players are paid in full?
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:12 PM   #629
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

"If you owe money, which will probably happen sometime, make sure no one ever has to chase you down. Be dependable. You may need to borrow from one source to pay another. If there is a time that you don't want to pay your debts because it will leave you with a short bankroll, pay the debts anyway. You reliability in these matters will result in you having a virtual bankroll far greater than the actual money you have.

"It is the responsibility of the person who owes money to mention the amount owed and his plan for making payment whenever he meets his lender. This may alleviate the hard feelings and misunderstandings that can accompany indebtedness.''


- barryg
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:12 PM   #630
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by insidemanpoker View Post
It's so simple and yet no one on the 'inside' is even mentioning this. Something very shady is going on. Paging Noah?
My suspicion is that Barry, and many of the other players, either have only small percentages of the money they owe, or don't want to pay their entire balances because it would leave them relatively broke (a funny proposition to most of us who lost our entire balances and became pretty broke).

again, all speculation

Andrew
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:13 PM   #631
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by barryg1
This may alleviate the hard feelings and misunderstandings that can accompany indebtedness.
That reads like poetry.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:13 PM   #632
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

I suggested an escrow player repay fund last september. More than 4 months later, nobody has yet putted a single cent in such a fund.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:16 PM   #633
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

It was pointed out yesterday, it still stands true today.

Barry Greenstein does not owe BGT any money until the deal is finalized!!!

That's it, end of discussion on that front. Now the best course of action for all sides to move forward in confidence is to set up an escrow holding the money to be released upon completion of the deal or to be forfeited to the DOJ upon failure of the deal. Its pretty much the only course of action at this point that doesn't appear self serving or shady.

Once again I say, Mr. Barry Greenstein, get on the phone with your boy Ivey and then the two of you reach out to everybody else. The two of you stepping up sets a pretty big precedent for everybody to fall in line.


Gogogogogogogogogogoggogogogogogogogogogogogogogog ogogogo!

Last edited by kevinb1983; 02-03-2012 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:16 PM   #634
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

I have plenty of respect for Barry and I think he will be attempting to do his best in this difficult situation. I am a row player and I am owed a reasonable amount but I don't hold Barry responsible for all this mess.
I hope we all get our funds back but I am a little confused as to where it all is. According to some reports several months ago the DOJ had seized 331 million.
• The amount seized by the DOJ between 28 June 2007 and 28 June 2011 was approx $331 million (Roughly enough to cover the estimated frozen player funds).

Somewhere I can remember reading that GBT will be handing over another 80 million to be allowed to do the deal. This combined seems to be much more than owed to the usa players (reported as approx $150 million) - I suspect lawyers and accountants get plenty of it - but doesn't some of the 331 mill belong to the row players as FTP carried on using their funds to allow the usa to play. I wonder why the row lawyers didn't throw a pile of spanners in so they could divvie it all up between lawyers.

Did the DOJ seize actually 331 million? It seems only $300 million is owed to usa/row players combined.

It is all very complicated, at the moment I certainly hope the GBT deal goes ahead and I expect Barry will do the right thing. Life is complicated and I don't see him as the villain.

Tbh as a naive and bit of a fool when it comes to international law it kind of looks a bit like the doj have swiped it. Are they actually allowed to use this money in any way or do they just keep it while it all evaporates in various costs?
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:18 PM   #635
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

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Once again I say, Mr. Barry Greenstein, get on the phone with your boy Ivey and then the two of you reach out to everybody else. The two of you stepping up sets a pretty big precedent for everybody to fall in line.

+1,000

Escrow FTW.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:19 PM   #636
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by Todd Terry View Post
What was the point in time that they had enough to cover player deposits?
I would love to see what evidence you've got that FTP wasn't covering player deposits before

<DTM pulls a date out of his ass>

October 16, 2009, give or take a couple of months.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:20 PM   #637
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by BalugaWhale View Post
If the deal goes through, GBT pays ROW players.

If the deal fails, there are no actors looking out for ROW players. The DOJ holds the only remaining assets, and ROW are not a priority for them.

Sucks for y'all, but its the way it is.

Andrew
Not sure on that if the deal fails. I was under the impression, that the DOJ takes the stance that they treat everyone equal where they seize assets. With the deal with GBT, they are getting the new owners to pay back the ROW, but if the deal fails, not sure what would happen.

You could see ROW launching legal action against DOJ to hold up payment.

Last edited by DavidNB; 02-03-2012 at 05:29 PM.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:30 PM   #638
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

Not that it really matters at this point, but I always thought it was against the Alderney gaming commission rules for a site to lend a player money?
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:33 PM   #639
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by easyfnmoney View Post
Not that it really matters at this point, but I always thought it was against the Alderney gaming commission rules for a site to lend a player money?
Its also against Alderney gaming commission rules for sites to use players money for day to day operations of the company
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:39 PM   #640
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

Please, please do not pay anyone before the deal is final. Makes no sense to pay BTG before then. FTP obviously can't be trusted.

Escrow FTW
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:46 PM   #641
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

To be fair, the AGCC is a joke of an organization. FTP did a lot of things that blatantly violated their rules and they either didn't notice or didn't care. They're either corrupt or terribly incompetent.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:49 PM   #642
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by DavidNB View Post
Not sure on that if the deal fails. I was under the impression, that the DOJ takes the stance that they treat everyone equal where they seize assets. With the deal with GBT, they are getting the new owners to pay back the ROW, but if the deal fails, not sure what would happen.

You could see ROW launching legal action against DOJ to hold up payment.
LOL at taking legal action against the DOJ. Good luck with that.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:50 PM   #643
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by BalugaWhale View Post
DoTheMath;

Why not escrow the money? It gets paid to GBT when the sale is finalized, it gets put into the US-player refund pool if the sale falls apart.

Andrew
Everyone keeps shouting "ESCROW!" I'm fairly sure that's precisely what GBT's lawyers proposed to Barry; he turned them down. The lawyers didn't call Barry up and say "Oh hai, can we hav sum moneez...that we get to keep if the deal doesn't go through?" No, there was surely an escrow arrangement proposed, and Barry would get his money back if there was no deal (and then he can use it for whatever he wants; give it to the DOJ to help pay U.S. players, light it on fire, whatever). Reading between the lines of Barry's first post that much is evident (reduction if US players are not paid in full, etc....)

Everyone saying "why should he pay GBT, they don't own Full Tilt yet!" needs to realize that the repayment would obviously be conditioned on the deal going through; that's how these things work. You think GBT would just keep the money if the deal gets scuttled, saying "oh sorry, we decided not to buy FT, thanks for the 400K"?

An escrow arrangement is probably what was offered. Barry told them to pound sand.
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:50 PM   #644
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

Hi Barry,

I think you are in a unique position as a person with clout in the industry who is willing to speak out on this subject.

Perhaps you could use your influence to build a visible coalition of debtors willing to step up to pay so that those who are not in the coalition are clearly known.

Thoughts?
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Old 02-03-2012, 05:57 PM   #645
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

What I dont get is how any pro would not know getting a "loan" from an online site that depends on players deposits for funds is shady in of itself. I can understand if you were sponsered and were paid but you were not a part of team tilt and were on a whole different site. I still respect you and coming out is noble, but why did you wait until you were forced to talk? Before bf when you owed did you not feel the need to repay when those who owed you didnt pay you or whatever, how long were you going to let the debt sit? And were you ever worried that after bf this news would break, and if so why did you not come out then and offer an escrow type thing like dwan has?
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Old 02-03-2012, 06:00 PM   #646
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by Kramerica View Post
He owes money and refuses to pay, simple as that.
It is not as simple as that.

He owes money, and refuses to pay GBT now, because GBT does not own the debt now. He refused to pay FTP, but only after BF, when it seemed likely that doing so would result in it buying lobster dinners rather than paying players. He didn't refuse to pay before BF, because FTP never asked him to pay before BF. He has specifically promised to pay when the deal is done and there is a mechanism in place to pay players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kramerica View Post
I don't care how good your rep is barry, do the right thing.
What is "the right thing"? If FTP had called in the loan the day after BF, and Barry had paid, and the money had been spent on lawyers, keeping Pocket Kings running or lobster dinners for Ray Bitar, would you have been satisfied? Or would you rather that Barry pays the money once there is a mechanism in place to see that such payments end up in the hands of players?
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Old 02-03-2012, 06:05 PM   #647
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

Can anyone focus on pre bf and if it was ok to get a loan from a site you dont work for? Regular players couldnt get loans. Because you are a popular pro does that make you more special than anyone else? What is the difference from you and the players that floated funds knowing the $$ was not coming out of the bank accounts? That is a loan pretty much and they are getting trashed, rightly so.
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Old 02-03-2012, 06:06 PM   #648
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

Quote:
Originally Posted by flpokerplayer View Post
What I dont get is how any pro would not know getting a "loan" from an online site that depends on players deposits for funds is shady in of itself. I can understand if you were sponsered and were paid but you were not a part of team tilt and were on a whole different site. I still respect you and coming out is noble, but why did you wait until you were forced to talk? Before bf when you owed did you not feel the need to repay when those who owed you didnt pay you or whatever, how long were you going to let the debt sit? And were you ever worried that after bf this news would break, and if so why did you not come out then and offer an escrow type thing like dwan has?
Yes. In the PokerNews article and in this thread, Barry analogizes this loan to casino credit. I find that extremely disingenuous. First of all, you aren't friends with the casino credit manager. Casino credit departments have strict repayment schedules, and come after you hard if you don't pay. And finally, casino credit is legal and regulated. This loan was a blatant violation of gaming commission rules. I understand that FT didn't care one whit for gaming commission rules, but I would have thought BG would have.
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Old 02-03-2012, 06:09 PM   #649
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

Quote:
What is "the right thing"? If FTP had called in the loan the day after BF, and Barry had paid, and the money had been spent on lawyers, keeping Pocket Kings running or lobster dinners for Ray Bitar, would you have been satisfied?
Generally speaking, it is the the right thing to pay back a loan in a timely manner, though there are exceptions (I personally don't believe this is one of them). Barry didn't do that, which now leaves him in an awkward spot.

It would be nice if he lived by the advice he gives in his own book, though.

Otherwise the word "hypocrisy" comes to mind.
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Old 02-03-2012, 06:09 PM   #650
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Re: Response regarding money I owe to Full Tilt

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Originally Posted by flpokerplayer View Post
Can anyone focus on pre bf and if it was ok to get a loan from a site you dont work for? Regular players couldnt get loans. Because you are a popular pro does that make you more special than anyone else? What is the difference from you and the players that floated funds knowing the $$ was not coming out of the bank accounts? That is a loan pretty much and they are getting trashed, rightly so.
It wasn't OK to get a loan FOR ANYBODY. It was a violation of Alderney gaming commission regulations. And yes, yes, everyone will scream "HA HA! But Full Tilt didn't care about the rules!" Yes, I realize that. But perhaps Barry and others who see themselves as "ambassadors for poker" and routinely give lectures about poker ethics should have.
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