Most low/midstake Ontario players who have looked into it agree something is going on while not all agree with my prop player theory almost everyone thinks something is going on. Also the fact many regs have sent emails to gg about this makes it unlikely they are bots since in theory they are so obvious they would have done something about it.

This is also in a new regulated market that started about 15 months ago. (gg launched 12 months ago) The whole point of regulation is to not allow stuff like this. If Ontario wants a cut of the pie they should do something about it. I think writing this thread will be a lot more effective to bring it to their attention then writing to some guy in Ottawa that has never played online poker in his life. I get this stuff happens on unregulated sites like acr all the time but if were going to let are governments ringfence us they can at least fight for them to do their job.

While you never may have a smoking gun for something like this I think most poker players should have a strong base of mathematics, statistics, and Probability. Say one player plays 8pm-5am everyday for 11 months and no other times that would just be weird but not suspicious. If you have 12 players all doing that it becomes very strange but it could still mathematically be a coincidence. But when we have 12 players doing this and 10 other things that most people don't do it becomes so astronomically likely that they are working together or have someone telling them what they can and cannot do. At this point it becomes a fact. These guys do not really try to hide it I think you will see its very obvious.

I think the best example for this is when a famous Minecraft youtuber named dream was exposed for cheating on his speed runs. Mathematicians were about to conclude that there was only 1 in 7.5 trillion odds he didn't cheat which exposed him to using a mod to change item drop rates in the game. He got lucky on all the item drops if he just got lucky on one or two he probably would have never been exposed. While I didn't want to spend the money to hire someone to back me up this is the principal we will be using to prove they are working together.

Other then that your just going to have to trust the info me and other Ontario Regs have gathered some added info and screenshots can surely be provided


Key Notes

1. They play nl100/nl200 sometimes nl50. NEVER NL500 this is important later
2. They all multitable 9+tables minimum.
3. They dont table select and will play each other 5 handed. If they had the standard rakeback% there is no way they could all do this without going broke. They almost certainly have a special deal
4. Most of them are quite nitty and all would be considered quite bad in the global pool. but in a ring fenced Canada site they are all certainly winning players.
5. GGpoker has a bad beat jackpot and they win alot of them... but we do not suspect collusion here or in normal play
6. Its possible they don't even live in Ontario and remote in. Ontario has the softest mid stakes games in the world probably but you have to live in Ontario to play them.
7. All 12 have played pretty fulltime hours since November and non have quit as far as I know. They play about 4-6 days a week rotate days off.
8. They are the only regs on the site who play ggpokers allinorfold. The rakes too high and the stakes are too low no one plays this trash but them.. amongst themselves for 1$ stakes
9. They make up about 50-70% of EVERY PLAYER during the 8-5 timeslot this is not a minor ring it is a high percentage of the players when you consider multitables

The Evidence

• 1. 8pm-5am est play only. zero exceptions over 9-10 months. Games are easier before 8pm so them choosing only this timeslot is strange. They always show up at 8pm on the dot no exceptions.
  
• 2. They don't actively play for the gg leaderboard they will stop playing a few hands from pay jumps. (massively -ev) GG rake is very high this massively lowers the effective rake.
  
• 3 No nl500 shot take in 10 million+ of combined hands. They have combined 200k+gg jackpot winnings . One of 12 winning players would have if they were not being told to play certain stakes.
  
• 4. Register 1$ allin or fold sngs everynight . This is much much smaller stakes then they play on other tables. They just reg it and it rarely goes off
  
• 5 Play .10 allinfold cash tables with 1$ in play while 14 tabling 1/2$ tables with 2k+ in play everynight
  
• 6.11/12 are losing players at aof sngs on Sharkscope but still push the games at really low stakes they should not be playing.( sharkcope included too bad they got rid of that huh?)
  
• 7. They never waitlist even if all tables are full they will just wait for open seats. This highly suggest they might all be using the same seating script or can only join tables that need a player.
  
• 8. They Rarely talk. a few rare exceptions (we do think they are individuals) People often try to interact with them and are ignored including sponsored pros
  
• 9. Run it once. (its more button clicking because of constant cashout offers. Its actually less ev because you can play less tables and ignore the allin so its against the norm for miltitablers.
  
• 10.No one in Ontario knows any of them (we all know each other. Its a very small poker community we are literally all in the same discord 80%+ of other regs )
  
• 11 No tournaments played until recently which were all satellites for major tournament that they started at offpeak times and only amongst themselves with the winner going directly into the money for a very high ro

i



Keep in mind while each of these things individually is not that suspicious. The fact they all follow these rules with little or no exception as a group makes it improbable that they are not working together in some way and following set guidelines set by someone above them.


The id's

Rainonme
su!@takemymoney
Tyler_win
ar@na
T_H_E
burrrrrr12
invincible152
doncryingfish
planethack
p@int
ggmasterKK
scops owl


Counter theory's-

I guess they could be a stable but this theory doesn't really pass the test. They all play at hours with less fish and against each other and never during the day when the games are the softest. As a winning player at the limits they play they are simply all collectively doing very dumb -ev things together. You would have to be a very shitty stable manager to run it like this. They start at 8am in china so it would have to be a foreign stable to make sense imo. They could be a stable but they would have to be a stable ggpoker hired to prop up their games.

Its possible they are bots but they seem to have their own slightly different playstyles and personality's and love to spam the emojis :). GG has been let aware of them and done nothing making this theory weaker imo. People have played alot of hands vs them and dont feel they are bots.

Coincidence? Na your kind of gullible if you believe this sorry. they are not a small percentage of the player pool. During the hours they play they make up about 50-70% of the total players online at their stake if you count multitables. About 30% of all nl100 traffic for the entire day. we do not have a big sample to find 12 players with these discrepancies but we find it. I think its quite obvious gg wants to win the lucrative Ontario market share of online poker and gambling.

Why they got away with this so long and may still

Small market
Everyone in Ontario is making heaps of money and don't really care
Most pros play 2-5+ play above them and just don't care what happens below them but we clearly have villain's mining out the 1/2 recs and not moving up which means less 2/5 recs
Players think because they beat them its ok. its just really bad for the longterm ecosystem.
GGpoker is quite profitable and generous on rb. They might not want to tap the glass. ggpoker Ontario has no pvi for example. We assume this is because it would be against fair play regulation.
I think there's a small fear of getting banned or targeted by one of the only places we can play online poker. I kind of expected the bigger Ontario names to bring it up.

What can be done about it

As every state/province/country in the world slowly becomes ringfenced and "government regulated" we need to have higher standards of what we allow these poker sites to do. I know you may not live in Ontario Canada but if you allow this to go on when your state or country opens up online poker or makes it geo restricted they will try this on you too. I imagine a very big boom is coming in the states after they see what Canada is doing. Alerting regulators to this by making a public thread is really all I could come up with im sure many people have already emailed them.
The United States will never join the global pool in are lifetime. But they might join the Canadian market or make their own similar one.


This is taken from the Ontario imaging website Im no lawyer but I think having your site ran by prop/bots might be against regulation.





Sorry for any grammar or formatting mistakes this is not really my thing but sadly I don't think anyone else was ever gonna bring it up.

would you have an issue if they were legit (i.e. not colluding/rtaing/cheating etc) players who had more rb as incentive to add liquidity?

The question has come up since I found out about them. I always played on sites I trusted mostly stars and personally avoided the sketchy ones until recently mostly due to lack of choice. Those sites I assumed never had side bonus rackback except for sponsored pros which is what your probably about to bring up . If I played on the sketchy ones like acr gg or apps more maybe I wouldn't bat an eye like many of my colleagues but I think we need higher standards. Even gg's global affiliate system everyone has it so no one was missing out. But this is something different

However my main issue here is this is in a regulated market where they advertise fair play and player safety. Its literally their responsibility and the trade off they make to get the cut of the pie.
A ringfenced government site should have higher standards then acr. Unfortunately I cant stop gg from doing sketchy things in unregulated markets. but we can here

What's the harm in playing on a site offered by by an unregulated operator?

"Operators have no accountability to consumers and regulators so they might stack the odds against the players"

This is written on the front page of the regulators website.

Also ggpoker.ca does not need prop players to add liquidity it makes no sense. Their vip system literally makes prop players for them. Maybe they did 11 months ago but not now

Exactly what have you accused them for to the support? Assuming they don't vpn and they don't collude they would only be guilty of losing money at the table. Not saying you are wrong, but I also don't really see you getting rid of them.

The accusation is in the title here is the definition for a live prop player.

A proposition player, usually referred to by the shorthand word prop, is an employee of a casino whose job is to play in poker games as directed by the floorman, usually in order to keep games going as they begin to get shorthanded. The casino has an interest in keeping more games going, since they earn their money by raking the pot: the more tables in play, the more pots, and the more rake the casino can earn.
A prop is usually paid an hourly wage (same as most employees of a casino) and must gamble with their own money as they play the games to which they are assigned. A prop generally has no say over which game to play (the floorman assigns them to whichever table most needs an extra player), and usually has no say even over which variant or stakes to which they may be assigned.

Proposition players are required to identifiy themselves as employees of the casino when they sit at a table. In most states, this requires the prop to wear an ID badge during play that identifies them as a proposition player to anyone who looks.


Props are highly likely not even legal in Canada I have asked around and no ones heard of a prop in Canada. Would love more info on this. Ontario has some pretty tight gambling regulations. For example if you go to slot machine they are mandated to show you the return rio% per spin in canada in the United States it is kept hidden. Essentially the government makes the casinos be up front with you. This is likely why ggpoker.ca does not have pvi rakeback like global does because it would likely be breaking this rule. So allowing a stable or hiring a group of prop players with an unfair advantage would certainly fall under this category.

(pvi rakeback means your real rakeback number is much lower to scam winning players)

A prop would likely get a 100% rb deal giving them a insane competitive advantage.

If I want to play after 8pm I have to play tables with 4-5 players who all have a competitive advantage over me. Once again if this was global maybe its fine were poker players we get scammed what can we do? But we are literally in a licensed platform by the Canadian Ontario government where they don't allow this stuff online or in casinos.

As far as collusion if these guys are not props they are totally colluding why else would they all play at the same time everyday together for 9 months with no exceptions when earlier times are more profitable. They are not losing any money I assure you. colluding's pretty hard to prove without seeing whole cards or stats which you cant really do on ggpoker.

You realise sponsored players often have 100 or more rakeback too? Don’t really get your issue (unless you suspect it’s against the law, but in terms of “unfairnes)

So obvious I even predicted that's what you were gonna bring up its quite different. They dont have to play 50k hands a week at set hours. they dont make up half the player pool. . Sites are not picking every person capable of 18 tabling to be a sponsored pro because that's awful for the games most don't actually even play on the site in any meaningful volumn. They also bring value outside of the table

We know they exist because the sites are open about them unlike shadow prop players . ITs not against regulation in Ontario.

I think you also missed the part where no one in Ontario knows who these guys in a small community where everyone knows everyone and they could be hired from china or russia. If gg is doing it here they are certainly doing it else where we were just able to detect them here because they were such a big percentage of the pool

I would always assume its Russians. It's why I quit playing on ACR cash games, and most ACR in general. (some plo8 tourneys but thats it)

These guys probably are getting extra rakeback to play at certain times, to increase liquidity

It comes off like you just want them gone to increase your EV. Which i can understand but your reasons for it are kinda weak.


Honestly GG is cheap as **** and are probably spending a ton if they are running a prop program like this.
One day they will just cut the program or cut the hours, and you'll have the fish to yourself again.

This is ok? Guys literally stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars and dead thread. I guess I shoulda opened up a nick airball thread.

I'd like to understand your complaint. Isn't your game regulated ?

If you are playing in a regulated market, on a regulated site, why don't you take your beef to the regulator ?

I am of the same position.

I vaguely recognise the username of OP so thought I was going to get a decent thread with a reasonable argument.

Providing: prop's are legal, no1's colluding and they are not vpn'ing in from elsewhere

I'm struggling to see why playing against a gg employee is bad. (Whether he or she is open about the fact to you or in this case, not.)

Well with the newest hand history I was shown they are clearly soft playing/colluding at least in bad beat jackpot qualifying hands. The players have close to a million hands played with each other so they should know they will never fold 1010+ against his kings because both players know its a bad beat jackpot worth 100buyins. however Villian checks the nuts 3 times. this is 100% softplay theres no reason to check because if villian has 99 hes drawing to quad 9's for a jackpot and on the turn hes dead.

So they just soft play each other and drain the BBJ and make the games suck for everyone

because having a thread of educated players supporting it would go along way thats the entire point of the thread. Most regulators don't even know the rules of no limit holdem and we are talking about some advanced stuff here that they almost certainly wouldn't understand. Its a new system Canada implemented

They honestly don't seem good for the website either . It feels like some newbie executive is trying to inflate his numbers to impress his boss to win market shares in a new market. Maybe it is just some collusion ring with inept security but I don't think so they outsource security from global. I know this because I talk to the global security.

Ok ill put this in a way Americans can understand better. Imagine half of the united states launched a ring fenced market regulated by the federal government . 3-4 sites all launch trying to grab market shares. One site decides to have half of its volume run by suspicious bots/props and they completely blow the competition away. now the main site usa players play on is ran by a site willing to influence their games with bots/prop players and they have a green light to do so because no one cared. would you be ok with this? Would you just do nothing?

what is the benefit of this supposed softplay in those two hands? paying less rake to gg with a smaller pot?

I think it's funny to complain about collusion when 80% of the regs are in a Discord together.

I think it’s funny that you assume being in a discord together is an indication of collusion.

The most aggro reg on reg dynamics I’ve had playing poker have been with study partners, so your comment is actually the exact opposite of reality for me.

I don't have much experience of bad beat jackpots, but exactly whats the issue in the 2nd hand? Yeah they are supposed to get all in but does it really matter, the bad beat jackpot goes through either way no? So it's irrelevant if they dont get the money in from a ev perspective (in regards to collusion i mean).

The first hand is kinda weird ish, but I think it's a sign of two players just not being great at poker and it seems within reason for a mistake made by people at these stakes regardless if its fish or regs. If they were to collude I think it's just easier to just have one of the guys bet somewhere and the other one call.

If this is the best you guys can come up with if you are 80% of regs in a discord I would be super confident in saying there is no collusion going on at least.

I like how that your conclusions when its more strange that 11 of the highest volume players are not in it. Ontario has like 30 regs. 11 of them are these guys the other 21 all know each other. No one knows any of these 11. Its super normal in small community's to single out cheaters and grimer's how else can you prevent getting cheated from rta and bots. Look at the highstake plo/holdem for example they were all in the same discord why do you think they organized boycotts

Claydol Didn't you used to be a professional poker player/supernova elite? How can you not understand how checking the nuts to your friend 3 times is collusion . These guys at minimum are in a stable together as I mathematically explained above. These are not casuals these are guys who raked 100-200k this year. They play 40 hours a week this is their job. When a pro checks kk on aaaxx 3 times vs a guy I called him out as being in a stable the week before. you dont think thats strange?

The hand literally happened after I made this post if you read above both the names were already listed in the ring.

I obviously have motives to make more ev. But its really not important. who else but someone who has something to gain has time to sherlock Holmes this. I don't think I would actually make ev with them gone tho at least short term. I simply just dont play vs them and play a 12-8 schedule before they login. All I really gain from them leaving is being able to play at more flexible times .

Also if gg ends their contract with them its quite likely they start playing all hours which will actually kill my ev since they do very minus ev things based on this likely contract. This assumes they are in Ontario and are good enough to keep playing however.

Lol, go look top winners at smarthand in cashgames and any triton stop. Can confirm he is still a professional player!

Could be collusion but there are spots where oop checks their entire range and doesn't pounce until the river

Think the second hand at Vs aj looks especially weird but again I’m just asking what you think their benefit of the collusion would be. Kk hand is also a bit funny (from a theoretical sense) but could easily see fishier players taking such a line
I can see that the pot is smaller compared to if they got it all-in, and therefore pay a little less rake, but as far as BBJ goes it shouldn’t change anything (unless I’m mistaken)?
As in, I don’t really see what this is proof of? That they just blindly/stupidly soft play without thinking about it?

I am open minded here and genuinely asking btw

I am less focused on the collusion but the most recent hand I saw did make me wonder more. You can only hit the bad beat jackpot on Certain flops with certain holdings. The minimum hand needed is to lose with aaa1010. Both flops posted were flops of aaa or aa1010+ infact the majority of bbj appear to come on aaaxx/aa10/aaj/aaq boards. The only other combos are quads over quads or straight flush etc

So in theory if one were to collude they would both agree to take the most passive line on these textures to maximize ev. Or they could communicate any spot where there was even a very small percentage to hit like with sets to hit the runners and take passive lines. If they were not soft playing each and both agreed to do this it would not be possible because too much ev would be lost. Since the jackpot is a 60/30 buyin split between the two you can see the incentive.

Keep in mind these 11 players have gone out of their way to only play at the same time for 11 months. 0 times have they played before 8pm local time in 11 months. Their schedules are aligned

It just felt like further evidence they are playing a team sport

I've played half of the names you've listed and have suspected the same for some time. They all play very similar styles and seem to be playing extremely tight for the stakes they frequent and like you said even though they're profitable they haven't moved stakes from 50/100 in months. I've played the AIOF games a couple times for shits and planetHACK and su!@takemymoney were the only users playing both times - at least one occasion with other players who were very active in chat which is to be assumed for a game like that however these players remained silent.

Obviously, all of this is purely circumstantial and should be taken with a grain of salt, but those names make up like a quarter of the 50/100 reg pool on GG Ontario.

Also, here’s some fun info:

“su” is a Linux OS command, short form for “Super User”. Wonder what it means for su!@takemymoney?



And then there’s the user with the name planet”HACK”. Basically hiding in plain sight (if they are in fact playing unfairly or cheating in some way).