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Old 06-15-2018, 01:31 AM   #1
TheGodson
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Diamond Rakeless poker room

Was just looking at a poker room that I've used to play at. They have increased their rake from 5%ish to 8%ish and this got me thinking. Why do we even have rake?

Okay, so for live poker you pay rake as a contribution to the business that is running the poker room and also to the dealer for dealing hands, but over the internet this should be completely free.

It seems like it would be a good idea for someone to create a poker room that has no rake at all. The code runs on its own and does not need any technical support. Why hasn't this been done before?

Perhaps I could be the one to create it. I'm a bit of a dreamer though so it isn't likely to happen.
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:34 AM   #2
magking1
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Re: Rakeless poker room

YOu and that dude who wants to create a poker only themed casino should
get together and brainstorm ideas.

I predict a most fortuitous relationship
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:35 AM   #3
Exothermic
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Re: Rakeless poker room

They exist, they're play $ rooms like Zinga though.
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:52 AM   #4
Lego05
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Re: Rakeless poker room

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGodson View Post
Was just looking at a poker room that I've used to play at. They have increased their rake from 5%ish to 8%ish and this got me thinking. Why do we even have rake?

Okay, so for live poker you pay rake as a contribution to the business that is running the poker room and also to the dealer for dealing hands, but over the internet this should be completely free.

It seems like it would be a good idea for someone to create a poker room that has no rake at all. The code runs on its own and does not need any technical support. Why hasn't this been done before?

Perhaps I could be the one to create it. I'm a bit of a dreamer though so it isn't likely to happen.

I suppose that the reason(s) no one else has done it are the same reason(s) you haven't done it.
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:52 AM   #5
ShallowMind
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Re: Rakeless poker room

Quote:
Why do we even have rake?
Quote:
you pay rake as a contribution to the business that is running the poker room
/thread?
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:53 AM   #6
kamuz
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Re: Rakeless poker room

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGodson View Post

It seems like it would be a good idea for someone to create a poker room that has no rake at all.

Perhaps I could be the one to create it.
Why not you do it? If you do it let me know I’ll come play
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Old 06-15-2018, 02:12 AM   #7
HotChips
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Re: Rakeless poker room

Rake should definitely be lower online, but high rake is needed at the micros otherwise all the pros would just come and destroy the recs. #MRIB
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Old 06-15-2018, 02:15 AM   #8
sungar78
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Re: Rakeless poker room

dude....

things like security cost money. If you want people to trust you with their money you owe them the decency of taking at least reasonable measure to make sure that money is safe. any table you run 9 handed 1/2 or bigger is likely to have around 2k worth of exposure. meaning that you just basically offered the entire Internet a 2k bounty to try and test the security of your site

good luck, but just one example of why I'll just pay some rake.


btw if you're a PokerStars shill, shove a light bulb up your ass.
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Old 06-15-2018, 02:48 AM   #9
Bobo Fett
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Re: Rakeless poker room

I don't want to be unkind, but it's amazing that someone who has been around our forums for 5 years as an active participant could create this thread, unless it's some kind of joke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGodson View Post
Why hasn't this been done before?
It has. The fact that you don't know this might provide a hint as to how that worked out.
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Old 06-15-2018, 03:55 AM   #10
SwoopAE
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Re: Rakeless poker room

If you want to play with no rake you can play microstakes husngs at SWC rakefree for bitcoin? Pretty sure the sngs below 0.25 (1.50ish usd) are rakefree.

The reason a rake free poker site doesn't exist is that poker sites need to pay their staff to answer support emails and process cashouts, their security teams to monitor for collusion etc, their programmers to fix bugs in the software and advertising to get recreational players to deposit at the site. That costs money, hence rake. Also, as businesses they want to make a profit but even if they only wanted to break even they'd need close to half of the current amount raked to do that.

Having worked at a low rake poker site that had 2% cash game rake capped at similar numbers to stars and co and 4% MTT rake, the site was making a small profit with small traffic after an initial outlay loss on advertising and would have been in the black within another year or so if the Australian gambling laws didn't get ******ed, PokerStars and co are lying when they say the rake needs to be as high as it is to make money, a market exists for a site with about half of the rake of the major sites, and it will turn a profit with competent staffing etc.
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Old 06-15-2018, 05:41 AM   #11
Maximus122
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Re: Rakeless poker room

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotChips View Post
Rake should definitely be lower online, but high rake is needed at the micros otherwise all the pros would just come and destroy the recs. #MRIB
The rake destroys the recs. Whats the difference in the pros taking their money or the poker site?

I think the reason a rake free site doesn't exist is money is costly to move around. Also, a security team has to be paid for, autidors, marketing etc.

But rake should be way way lower than it is now. Charging 5% to see a flop is absolute complete and utter madness.

I don't see why a cryto poker site wouldn't be able to charge extremely low rake.
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Old 06-15-2018, 05:46 AM   #12
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Re: Rakeless poker room

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus122 View Post
The rake destroys the recs. Whats the difference in the pros taking their money or the poker site?

I think the reason a rake free site doesn't exist is money is costly to move around. Also, a security team has to be paid for, autidors, marketing etc.

But rake should be way way lower than it is now. Charging 5% to see a flop is absolute complete and utter madness.

I don't see why a cryto poker site wouldn't be able to charge extremely low rake.
They probably could be why would they?
They're gonna spend tons of money attracting new clients and maintain their site with good security to let people just print money on their site?It makes no sense.

Don't get me wrong,it would be nice bit it's not realistic.
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Old 06-15-2018, 05:51 AM   #13
gregorio
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Re: Rakeless poker room

Quote:
Originally Posted by kamuz View Post
Why not you do it? If you do it let me know I’ll come play
I'll only play if I can still earn rakeback
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Old 06-15-2018, 05:58 AM   #14
Maximus122
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Re: Rakeless poker room

I remember back in the golden days of Full Tilt I was a break even micro stakes grinder for about a year and was totally unaware of Rakeback.

Then I e-mailed Full Tilt asking them if they would give me 28% Rakeback and they gave it to me.

All of a sudden I was making money from Rakeback and it meant the world to me. I was so happy that i was finally making money.

I think so many more people would be playing poker right now if they were making money at the tables and not breaking even/losing to rake
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Old 06-15-2018, 06:02 AM   #15
Chicagodude
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Re: Rakeless poker room

Poker is unwanted by casinos to begin with and scammers are attracted to the online world.
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Old 06-15-2018, 06:35 AM   #16
BDHarrison
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Re: Rakeless poker room

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus122 View Post
But rake should be way way lower than it is now. Charging 5% to see a flop is absolute complete and utter madness.
Why should it be lower? Maybe it should be at a point just below being high enough that serious poker players decide to quit playing online and start playing live only.
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Old 06-15-2018, 06:41 AM   #17
Colin_Piddle
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Re: Rakeless poker room

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fett View Post
I don't want to be unkind, but it's amazing that someone who has been around our forums for 5 years as an active participant could create this thread, unless it's some kind of joke.


It has. The fact that you don't know this might provide a hint as to how that worked out.
He's well known in BBV for posting awful threads there too.
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Old 06-15-2018, 06:43 AM   #18
Szenna15
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Re: Rakeless poker room



OP
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Old 06-15-2018, 06:51 AM   #19
Maximus122
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Re: Rakeless poker room

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Originally Posted by BDHarrison View Post
Why should it be lower? Maybe it should be at a point just below being high enough that serious poker players decide to quit playing online and start playing live only.
It should be lower so players can win. Poker players are under the illusion that they are playing against other players, but in reality they are playing against other players and the house.

Let's say for arguments sake that 2 players go all in and its a flip.

Its not a flip though because both players are losing money from rake paid to the house
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:32 AM   #20
borg23
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Re: Rakeless poker room

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maximus122 View Post
It should be lower so players can win. Poker players are under the illusion that they are playing against other players, but in reality they are playing against other players and the house.

Let's say for arguments sake that 2 players go all in and its a flip.

Its not a flip though because both players are losing money from rake paid to the house
well then ban flips!

Look poker has given me a lot in life, but i don't understand why people don't get poker sites are in business to make money for the poker sites.They're going to charge as much as people are willing to pay and they should.
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:12 AM   #21
falldown
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Re: Rakeless poker room

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwoopAE View Post
If you want to play with no rake you can play microstakes husngs at SWC rakefree for bitcoin? Pretty sure the sngs below 0.25 (1.50ish usd) are rakefree.

The reason a rake free poker site doesn't exist is that poker sites need to pay their staff to answer support emails and process cashouts, their security teams to monitor for collusion etc, their programmers to fix bugs in the software and advertising to get recreational players to deposit at the site. That costs money, hence rake. Also, as businesses they want to make a profit but even if they only wanted to break even they'd need close to half of the current amount raked to do that.

Having worked at a low rake poker site that had 2% cash game rake capped at similar numbers to stars and co and 4% MTT rake, the site was making a small profit with small traffic after an initial outlay loss on advertising and would have been in the black within another year or so if the Australian gambling laws didn't get ******ed, PokerStars and co are lying when they say the rake needs to be as high as it is to make money, a market exists for a site with about half of the rake of the major sites, and it will turn a profit with competent staffing etc.
It took a lot of money to make Pokerstars what it is. The people that outlayed that money want a return on that too. On a current accounting basis, it doesn't take much to turn a small profit. When you consider the fixed/sunk costs, the math changes a lot.
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:30 AM   #22
Pyrochaos
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Re: Rakeless poker room

You could do this live. You would have to do it in your home though, with your own table and people you know. What would we call these games in your home though? Game homes?
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:46 AM   #23
NooooBingo
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Re: Rakeless poker room

Quote:
Originally Posted by SwoopAE View Post
Having worked at a low rake poker site that had 2% cash game rake capped at similar numbers to stars and co and 4% MTT rake, the site was making a small profit with small traffic after an initial outlay loss on advertising and would have been in the black within another year or so if the Australian gambling laws didn't get ******ed, PokerStars and co are lying when they say the rake needs to be as high as it is to make money, a market exists for a site with about half of the rake of the major sites, and it will turn a profit with competent staffing etc.
Oh come on, there's no comparison. Stars yearly lawyer fees would be more than the entire operational costs of the site you worked for. You can't compare a bootstrapped start-up poker site with probably <1k players to Stars in terms of operational costs.

Think about how much licensing, lobbying, servers, staffing, taxes etc are for a multi-billion dollar business.

Not just that, but they're a public company and have a fiduciary responsibility to provide value for their shareholders.
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Old 06-15-2018, 11:04 AM   #24
SpinMeRightRound
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Re: Rakeless poker room

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGodson View Post
Was just looking at a poker room that I've used to play at. They have increased their rake from 5%ish to 8%ish and this got me thinking. Why do we even have rake?
We have rake because:

a) people are prepared to pay rake

b) It covers the site's running costs, pays the shareholders, pays the employees' salaries

Quote:
Okay, so for live poker you pay rake as a contribution to the business that is running the poker room and also to the dealer for dealing hands, but over the internet this should be completely free.
Why would it be completely free?

An online poker site has a number of costs. They have to pay their software engineers, developers, marketers, customer support staff, electricity costs, shareholders, the CEO's salary. You think all these things cost nothing and people are just prepared to work for free?

Quote:
It seems like it would be a good idea for someone to create a poker room that has no rake at all. The code runs on its own and does not need any technical support. Why hasn't this been done before?
Even if code does not require technical support (which it always does btw), what about all the other costs outlined above?

Quote:
Perhaps I could be the one to create it. I'm a bit of a dreamer though so it isn't likely to happen.
Go for it. Let us know how it goes.
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Old 06-15-2018, 01:21 PM   #25
Fletch F. Fletch
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Re: Rakeless poker room

After rakeless poker, maybe we can just move to a cashless society. Ya man, like we should all just work together and stuff. Would be such a better world.
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