Do any other former MTT grinders with a "regular" job now (subconsciously) view every MTT played for "fun" as a shot at winning enough to go back to being a "full time" pro?

I have definitely slipped into this line of thinking and i suspect it is psychologically unhealthy.

Binking one score doesn't change your earning potential. Seems like it'd be a really bad decision to go back to playing full time if you stopped because your ev wasn't high enough for it to be worth it.

Maybe, maybe not. Regardless of what might be best for me personally, i think feeling is related to the aspirational element of poker that can sometimes feel absent from more conventional jobs.

https://www.piosolver.com/ <-- pio for the guy who asked

Great post by Chuck Bass and it feels like our careers probably had a similar trajectory where poker gave us great times in our 20s and then as we got older and the poker economy changed we both found a suitable transition out

I agree with don't fear the resume gap if you have drive and network well while you're at the tables you'll meet tons of business owners and people with high net worths and so on and you'll make the contacts you need to help with a job hunt if you transition out - I have a degree as well from pre-poker days but i've never used it and probably won't as I can't see myself getting out of sports betting unless the economy there deteriorates as badly as online poker's did and i'm a much smaller fish in a much bigger pond in sports betting even though i'm making more than I did playing poker. Even if I did decide to get a 9-5, i've made contacts through poker who could hook me up with a trading job (either for a sportsbook or traditional trading) or work in an office or whatever if I wanted to pursue that.

On the point of resume gap though I do think you need to be more cautious about turning pro in 2019 than I was in 2008 - 2008 me would not have succeeded in 2019, but if you're willing to put the work in it's doable.

I kept my freedom with my transition out but Chuck Bass makes a good point about never being truly 'off' when you're any sort of advantage gambler whether that's poker or sports betting or whatever else - it's to a minor detriment to my work/life balance as I often want to check the betting lines for 5 minutes when i'm out at dinner to 'collect the value' from that 3 hour chunk of time, etc. or how in poker you never want to miss Sunday majors or if a big whale is sitting or whatever.

Regarding a big bink convincing me to go pro again I doubt it although I might play a bit more poker than I otherwise would have but I don't think i'll be going pro again unless i'm either out of other options or the state of the poker economy drastically improves to where my EV is a few hundred k a year at least which is super unlikely given my abilities relative to the field will slowly continue to decrease over time. I don't even think getting the US market back would do it anymore, although it certainly would boost all pros EV by a ton.

Not really. I think I play more relaxed knowing I actually have a job which pays for all. I see it more as having a little side income to travel or add to my retirement money longterm.

I think most people who quit poker for regular employment would find there lives would improve. Constantly grinding can take a lot out of you and can get crazy repetitive.

Boring 9-5 jobs are a grind too. I'd snap put in the work to play poker professionally again over one of my previous jobs in a 5 star hotel where everyone was a backstabbing career-climber. Granted I would probably focus on a non-holdem variant these days. A better way to put it would be people who don't love poker who are struggling to grind out minimum wage would be better off working a traditional job. There are min wage jobs and even above min wage jobs that are far worse lifestyle wise than grinding poker out there though.

When I finally bink a big live MTT score (I'm positive it will happen sooner or later), I intend to invest the winnings in property to make my life easier, but it won't convince me to go pro again. It will probably lead to playing more high buy-in events, but only with a fraction of the entire win.

There are a lot of people who have basically been forced to quit because they couldn't stay ahead of the curve or handle the swings, but speaking from my own experience, there's also a category of players who, even though are consistently winning, have simply lost the passion for the game. I guess my case is different from the most in a sense that I never actually went full pro in the usual sense, but rather just played full time to support myself in college while having a clear exit plan in place (this was from from early to mid 10's).

I agree with Chuck Bass's sentiment that there is likely a very strong correlation between one's age and attitude towards poker. When I turned 18 around 9 years ago and got started, I didn't have much going on for me, so I wanted to do nothing else than just grind and analyze my game since I found the strategy problems arising from different spots fascinating. This interest kept going strong for the next few years (with me going as far as writing my own HU solver before any kind of commercial software existed) and I was a solid $200-300 HUSNG regular, but as I approached mid-20's, a weird kind of disillusionment about poker became to creep in. This feeling wasn't caused by the fact that the games were getting harder, but it was rather an existential one with me questioning where does poker fit in if other responsibilities in my life increase, as is usually the case as one gets older. This feeling never quite went away and as time passed, I grew more miserable at the tables. I still loved the game theory aspect of the game (still do) and beat the game at quite decent clip, but actually sitting at the tables felt like a real chore. There was this constant thought sitting at the back of my head how I should spend time with my significant other, friends, or in general do something that I would actually enjoy instead of playing poker.

Even though I was secured both money and career wise, I found the thought of letting poker go anxious. Firstly, by 2016 I had been grinding poker almost daily for over 6 years so I felt like it had become inseparable part of my life that will always be there. Secondly, I was afraid that maybe I won't be able to cut it in the real world. However, what sealed the deal for me was finishing up my MSc and getting headhunted by a company where I had always wanted to work at. By accepting the offer, I also decided that if I'm going to take this opportunity, I'll give it my full focus and not half ass it by trying to balance poker on the side. Doing so meant that I withdrew my whole roll and deliberately donked off the FPPs that couldn't be converted into money. The first few days and weeks were really confusing as I was still pondering over whether I made the right decision and it wasn't really until the end of the first month, when I received my first paycheck and some compliments from my superiors about my performance, that I actually felt content with the decision, as these two aspects kind of validated the choice in my eyes and made me feel more secure about it.

Having done that for a while now, I also sympathize with Chuck Bass's feeling that not playing poker makes me feel more free than playing ever did. With poker, you can always put in more hours, have to study, and handle the variance, none of which really give the peace of mind, even during the "off time". For this reason, playing poker feels like an eternal, but really unpredictable grind where a lot can go wrong at any given time. However, by having a structured and stable job, you show up, do your thing, get paid set amount, and outside working hours are generally free to do whatever you want. I personally, as a 27-year old adult, I couldn't imagine living the life of a poker player. There's the obvious monetary aspect where you never really know what your net worth is going to be in future which makes financial planning a nightmare and secondly, since playing poker consists mostly sitting alone in a room I feel like there is also a fair amount of social isolation involved which can cause hardships in friend- and relationships.

I don't know if quitting poker was the best decision I ever made, but it was probably the smartest one when thinking about big picture view of becoming a responsible adult. However, I would definitely argue that deciding to become a full-fledged poker pro is probably one of the worst decisions one can make in this day and age. There's still this view that poker players are some kind of successful independent entrepreneurs who stick it to the man by not being part of the system, but in reality, poker players are just rake grinding machines who work on incredibly terrible terms and at the end of the day, get their cut by the courtesy of the poker site. Professional poker players mostly seem to think that as long as their graph is moving upwards, life is good, but the reality is that they have no insurance, pension, sick pay, or employment rights. Poker is incredibly draining on both physical and mental health and even though there are lots of people who have done it for the past 10-15 years, imagine doing it for another 20-25. There's also the aspect that, the skills poker players possess aren't really transferable to other occupations and grinding produces nothing of value to a society. Sure, there are players who have leveraged their poker success to a job, but these are exceptions and nobody is going to care about your NL50 graph and the ability to calculate odds. I'm not even going to get into falling behind the curve and the everlasting possibility of potential legislation or poker site simply closing down and screwing you over, but I feel it can be said with certainty that there are very few reasons to think about taking poker somewhat seriously (earning some money on the side) and a lot of reasons not to go down that path.

I've never done either for a living but I'm sure there's a huge difference grinding on-line versus live poker. There are pros and cons to each. To group both together in this conversation though is a mistake, imo.

I think in the long run, playing live poker for a living is more sustainable versus on-line when all the pros/cons are looked at.

I relate to this sentiment, no matter how unrealistic or financially risky it may be.

Conversely, one of the biggest downsides of a real job is the fear that i will **** up badly enough to get fired and leave the field in disgrace, rightly earning the hatred of those who depend on me. And some days that feels just as “inevitable” as a big poker score (even though this kind of disaster is less likely than a big MTT win).

Nice posts, slenderhusband & Swoop. Very good point about no pension, sick pay, insurance etc that I forgot to include as well.

If I had to summarize my thoughts one year into retirement in one sentence instead of a big rambley post, it would be this: I have so much more free time now and get so much more done in life. I don't think that's something I would have valued as much 8 years ago because all I wanted to do was to play poker anyway, but as a bit older and with a bunch of other interests, it feels so good.

Also, much respect to all the 2019 grinders out there. It's not an easy gig for sure.

Its kinda weird I dont see many posts in this thread about starting a biz. I'll offer my 2c fwiw. Its certainly not for everyone and I'm very far from a tycoon. Im just passionate about people starting businesses as opposed to being conventional & working for the man.

Its never been easier (in terms of resources & startup $) to start a biz - many more people should be doing it these days instead of getting a job (or at least as a side line) - especially if youve grown accustomed to losing money for extended periods of time, not knowing when things will change and still being able to keep a good work ethic. Thats exactly how business is to start - however I guess you cant go from flat broke leaving poker into a biz, but theres certainly room for part time start ups/launch something on side if you dont have the savings.

I played msnl-hsnl cash for 10years purely bumhunting, when you could actually do it (hu tables, amazing euro sites etc, very long hours behind computer waiting/watching lobbies) I probably averaged £150-200k/yr with no tax. I have never been a very elite player, I didnt desire to be I just didnt want a regular job and was good enough and found a niche in seeking weaker players. When poker started to die, I couldnt fathom going to work for someone after that sort of freedom year in year out. Of course there were dire months/downswings - but in hindsight its that part of it that helps when starting a biz, if you have played poker professionally for any extended amount of time - you arent like regular folk who grind 9-5s who have no idea of breakeven stretches or downswings and what that can do to you mentally, its the same thing as starting a business and having no income/no idea when it will turn - after many years of these things happening it may well be the best mental tool you have for later life especially when delving into business. A lot of ppl have an idea for a biz and they 'wait' until they have enough savings or the perfect time, in my experience having a little gamble in you and understanding variance is very helpful when starting a business. Especially if you want to get rich, you wont get 'rich rich' being comfortable in a salary or having all the comforts of security, you need some sweat and to enjoy those periods of time where you literally dont know whats going to happen but have blind faith and understand you are likely +ev in what you're doing. Its very similar to poker in that respect. Many ppl I know who are successful as lawyers, realtors or bankers etc who have all had comfortable salaries cannot stomach the idea of having no income for 3mths (and having to use savings/bankroll), to me it was completely normal because of poker.

I have had of course a couple of failed businesses - epic fails which make losing months at poker seem redundant, in terms of £ lost/embarrassment its a hard pill to swallow. But mixing in poker again got me out of some holes and enabled me to try again at business, but understanding poker was a means to an end and not the main focus anymore was key for me - current biz is e-commerce & I own 2 stores (aswell as Amazon) that do well in a niche and I'm tenacious and extremely hungry (it also doesnt feel like work, at all, even though it is very much so) - so much of it and my attitude to it is from poker, its an invaluable asset and I owe poker an incredible amount - not just because I was fortunate to make good money from it but what it teaches you mentally is invaluable. I couldnt thinkg of anything worse than playing poker solely professionally now though. Good luck

Edit: I should actually add, business is hard, its far from easy and it sometimes doesnt work out - I didnt mean to sound like its easy. It has to be a good idea, you have to implement it properly and you have to work ****ing hard. I was just pointing out that getting a job is not the only answer, especially not for someone like me. Poker players who have treated poker as a business and are professional in what they do would be good at business in my opinion as they have an asset not many people have which is being accustomed to losing/winning lots of money day in day out and not knowing whats going to happen but knowing they were likely +ev.

man I'm sort of starting to feel like you did when you quit, feels like having more free time would be nice, I still play poker, got a wife and 2 kids (8 and 7 yrs old) I'm turning 33 and been playing since I was 20

I have no idea what I would do if I were to quit though, I still make good money from poker but I feel this weird pressure that I always need to grind even though I don't actually need the money

Great post!

were you guys who moved on just cold quit overnight and then tried something new or were you already working on something on the side while mainly playing poker and slowly quit poker?

Haha no!

I’m not sure about others I grinder for like 5-7 years in my 20s but after being unhealthy, isolated, and feeling like I have something more to offer in the world then taking money off others, I don’t think I’ll ever have that feeling, don’t get me wrong still feels good to win a tourney , but I would never wish to be a full time pro ever again

Awesome post dappadan

I was playing whilst working on it prior to launch (startup £ came solely from poker), I then took a few months hiatus to focus and now I play what would be considered as recreationally albeit I semi know what I’m doing. I’ve been playing seriously since 2003/4 so I’m unlikely to ever not play. I play 1-2 times a week now but it’s not structured like it used to be and mainly a continuous spin up or bust process and it’s still infruriating as it ever was but it’s cool not having to rely on it. Reading that back sounds like I’ve got it all figured out, I really don’t lol far from it. That’s just loosely what I’ve always done.

Lots of people need your elp. Find a worthy smart single parent and coach and stake them if you can afford the investment.

Spoken like someone who has no clue what it's like to grow a successful business.

You paint a picture like it's something straightforward that most people could comfortably do. It's anything but. In the first few years, it's 12+ hour days including weekends to get it off the ground and even then, chances of failure are well over 90%. Plenty of people more intelligent than you have tried and failed.

I've seen people irl with the exact same attitude that you have to business and they crash and burn very quickly.

Wow. Did you even read the post you idiot? You sound like a bitter hater who is probably a failure and hates to hear when people are positive about launching businesses.

I have had failed businesses (2 so far) - I have now found one that is 3yrs old and is doing well and is 300% up on t/o from 2017-2018. When did I say it was easy - why don’t you read the last paragraph. When did I say I didn’t work 12hrs a day? I likely work more if you count everything in but it doesn’t feel like work.

It depends what niche you’re in and what business you launch. I launched a b&m business which failed miserably within 14mths which never made a profit (because it had very high overheads & low profit margin) and I ended up completely ****ed owing money to the bank - and I now have an online business which has been in profit from week 1 and we are 3yrs old, which has very low overheads & a high profit margin.

Take your negative, depressing attitude elsewhere and go preach about failure to someone else.

I totally agree , when I see how many hours some people put to just study the game , I think if they use that time starting and growing a business would be a +EV.
And after business is working by itself , we have a lot of time to play the game we love.
Of course business is not easy and especially after you must hire other people you have a lot more to deal with, but if you can bring the business to the point you can be an absentee owner , would be a real freedom .

ignore spinmerightaround, he's like that about everything, there's a reason him and people like him don't really ever succeed

IMO Poker is great if your underachiever who ends up in crappy jobs without it. If you did well at school/good networker ect ect probably not worth pursuing for long period of time.