Good points. Someone should total each of their accounts for fulltilt, stars and any other sites they play on, so one can see a clear repensentaion of how much each is up/down for the last two years. This will give a more fair and clear picture.

Why was the title changed? Op did not make a generalised question. It was specific and valid.

this?

There was 2 different threads about this and they were merged. If you look at titles of each post you can see that some of them were originally posted in a different thread.$upermad4it made the first thread titled "PTR's who's the best coach email" and the second thread called "2M2MM cast downswongz" was pretty much about the same subject so some mod simply merged the second thread into the one made first.

No need for tinfoil hats yet.

teaching ability is only loosely correlated with performance

Not gonna do too much more searching, but the PT screenshots I was talking about in my post above were largely compiled by "Josh." and can be found in the archives. Like this one:
http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...fpart=all&vc=1

I'm just pasting a single comment from that thread, but IMO it's representative of what happened every time Josh. posted a screenshot:

A few months ago "poker coach" BreathWeapon was able to scam many people on 2+2 out of thousands by basically reading books and concepts back to them.


PTR helps to show that BreathWeapon played only a few losing hands at the micros and was basically a professional scammer, not a poker player of any sorts

For the people saying about the 2m2m guys with all their negative PTR's. It's not like these guys were all wealthy businessmen who can afford to lose 500k. All the young guys start with under $2k and a lot of them from freerolls or $50 deposits. The fact they have 1mil to lose and stuff just shows how much they have been making before PTR was around and on different sites.

The results are all massively messed up aswell because if they lose 10 buyins takin shots at 500/1000 they dont have all their own action.

Its like saying because leatherass is up 500k or whatever on his ptr hes better than krantz, whitelime, ansky and flawless. In reality these guys would pay leatherass a lot of money to lock in 20k hands at 25/50 hu or something.

this could be said about a lot of things, but not poker imo...

ya tilt is an issue but i think a good coach should be able to help his students w their mental game to some extent and theres def a few guys out there who have tilt probs and still beat the games.

that said, ability (and even results at the tbls) seem to be only loosely correlated to PTR results tab... even 'loosely correlated' would be an unfair description in my case.

This. Also, everyone of them but Krantz has a positive bb/100 win-rate so even though they are down money the results still strongly indicate they are winning players.

Results are only "loosely correlated" in your case? Your post seems contradictory.

While I will agree that some players have lots of knowledge about the game but struggle with execution at the tables. These players certainly have more to offer to potential students then their results might suggest. The problem lies in how does a student know this? Take the coaches word for it?

Also, to say the playing ability is only loosely correlated with results over large samples(and large samples is larger than most people would think IMO) is silly. A players ability is what he or she can produce at the tables over large samples. It is irrelevant that they might know more about the game or have more ability than their results suggest.

Ability is only loosely correlated to results over 460,000 hands ? Ability to do what ? Play a good game or talk one ?

This is an inaccurate statement. Cole is no longer an instructor or owner of CardRunners. You can refer to his blog if you'd like.

To be clear, I didn't make my OP with any ill intent. I understand that a winning player can grind out $500k over a year or two and then lose it all and more taking shots at high stakes in a month which would skew his results at first glance. But is that someone you want to be taking advice from? Someone who works his ass off for a few years to go give it all back in a few bad sessions? If I were to spend the money on a coach I would try and find someone who could follow their own advice on BR management. Taking shots is part of the maturing process in poker, but when it doesn't work out you're supposed to move back down and continue the grind.

To each his own, its not my place to judge any of these guys. I respect their games and their coaching abilities. They each have their own successes and failures on other sites under different screen names. Was merely showing four players who were on TV basically trying to break even on Full Tilt.

so tempted to say something mean but ill exercise restraint (i think i called some1 a ****** in my last 2p2 post and i got an infration, wtv that means..)

i was saying that is not only inaccurate but wildly inaccurate, no idea how this is possible but i can only speak for myself... everytime i go on a heater i chk PTR curious to see if im somehow in the black yet, and everytime it seems like im actually down $ over the run hot period...

i dont want this to turn into a thread about my results and prob shouldve just kept my mouth shut, and i think i already explained where i stand on the 'talks a good game but cant perform at the tbls' thing...
if ur paying some1 who is not a big winner to coach u, ur an idiot.

In the last 2 month, Ansky made 250k in Stars cashgames (according to PTR) and cashed big in the 40k WSOP event this summer. I'm pretty sure he's able to live of his poker winnings right now.

So if someone is a car seller, had a rough year due to the bad economy (and actually lost money) but manages to hang around because he did good the last couple of years, you wouldn't describe his profession as "car selling" anymore?

If ptr is killing poker then what about all the tracking software eg. pokertracker, table ninja. Isn't that even worse for players that you have that kind of information on the HUD's??

According to ptr durrrr hasnt made any money in 2 years and is a massive loser at 40/80. I certainly dont want him coaching me at 1/2.

pretty sure PTR is worse than HUDs etc.

In many areas, like poker and chess, in general, stronger players are better coaches.

It is true that there are some strong players who lack the ability to teach.

However, few weak players are good coaches for anyone who is not an absolute beginner- and even in this case, bad ideas and habits learned early can be dangerous.

This is truth.

[X] Uncovers Russian bot ring before Stars did
[X] Uncovers DON cheating ring
[X] Broke Stoxtrader (Nick Grudzien) collusion with LittleZen and forced Stars to ban them
[X] Shows that BreathWeapon was a losing player at a few microstakes hands. He was not the winning coached that he claimed to be in order to scam 2+2'ers.
[X] Helps to ban Furbean (a Stars Supernova Elite) and fua_ for massive collusion.
[X] Shows that UB and Cake did not use SSL encryption and was hackeable.

These are some things you can thank PTR for

Yeah, PTR has only been single handedly responsible for uncovering every major cheating scandal in the last 3 years. But why would be be concerned about that, lets ban them because my friends can see how much I suck right?

So you are saying PTR exaggerates on purpose, and these coaches are down even more than their stats would indicate?

pro·fes·sion (pr-fshn)
n.
1. An occupation or career


pro·fes·sion·al (pr-fsh-nl)
adj.
1. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
2. Performed by persons receiving pay: professional football.

n.
1. A person following a profession, especially a learned profession.
2. One who earns a living in a given or implied occupation: hired a professional to decorate the house.
3. A skilled practitioner; an expert.

Profession & Professional are two different things. One describes what you do. The other describes how well you do it.

I.E. FGators claims that his profession is playing poker, though he lives in his mothers basement because he can't afford his own place. On the hand, DonkPredator is a professional poker player. He pays his bills and buys himself nice things with the money he makes from poker. Correlated on a standard line graph, FGators graph would look like something that might be fun to sled down. DonkPredators graph would like something that you would need a helicopter to get to.

Sorry, PLO400 Prop Bet thread is fused into my subconscious.

deucescracked ftw

the PTR coverage of the 100/200+ games is definitely higher than the coverage of lower which is why all the large losses are caught but not all the long-term winnings at lower stakes

not rocket science