Just curious how many people would play poker if they could only play against the 2p2 community, 2p2er vs 2p2er it would be a massive sit out fest. Pokersites way over valued the 2p2 community and it hurt poker and helped a few instead of looking out for the greater good of the game, and longevity of the game. The truth is you will play where ever the bad players play and what ever is more profitable to you, making you some what of an employee of pokerstars. Now the other class of players will play where they are the most comfortable or where they see the best advertisement, or best value. So people are giving pokerstars crap about what may or may not be a pay cut, but they never look and see that they have been bad employees. One bad player gets 35 people on wait list and as soon as he quits or sits out everyone sits out? How would you feel if that was you? If i was a casual player i would feel like they were cheating me, as it is i feel like as if i would never want to play with them.

I personally hope that everyone that sits out tomorrow gets banned. Poker sites spend tons on advertising to give you a market place to play and you keep wanting them to make it easier and easier for the pro to beat the casual player. I havent seen many ideas that put the game ahead of whats best for the winning players and by doing this you are just money grabbing your self.

Sorry but online poker should be like real poker, not a video game. Lets see you guys play 24 tables with no hud lets see you guys sit down and play vs everyone. Spend your time trying to help the game not trying to take advantage of the system.

everyone has a right to express their opinion bro, a protest is a way of stating they don't like something...sorry that some one us don't like the new rake system.

You are way off. We are protesting the fact that the fish get a little bonus, the regs lose alot and stars pockets the difference. I have no problem with stars, instead of pocketing the difference, give it to the fish.

This is not about making life for pros better and easier, but the poker economy and game as a whole.

not a rakeback pro...when I learned how rake actually worked up to now I was amazed.

nitty 24 tabling grinders had it way too easy

GG STARS

correct me if im wrong but does pokerstars now hold the monopoly for onlinepoker?

because to me, it seems so.
trafficwise you cant really grind on other sites (at least SNGs)
i also heard bad stuff about player accounts beeing banned on Party while bots are "allowed" for grinding SNGs... so party is also a no go

and smaller sites dont have any traffic

Roll on the launch of GBT FT

What if stars needs the extra income to keep cultivating new players so there will still be games going? They lost a lot of there income when they lost the U.S players. So with out new fresh money coming in what does that do to the game as a whole? How many people that are loosing players are going to sit out 24 tables? I love the game of poker and have watched for years as this community has tried to manipulate it so they have an advantage. I remember when you had to email support to get a copy of hand histories, then people thought it would be great to just be able to see every hand. People are exploiting the system for there own good and not the good of the game.

As a Stars player, I'll be happy once FT comes back. Not because I want to move sites, but because a monopoly is never good for any market and new competition will inevitably force a change in prices/rake.

Good of the game?!? Raising rake certainly isn't good for the game. If anything, lowering rake is good for the game.

What if? Nobody cares about what if. I don't know what they will use the extra money on, therefor I want to keep the money with the players.

I do agree with you however that people take advantage of the system, but that is human nature. But understand, this is not just a bunch of 24-tabling nits (I play heads up myself) who want to keep their little nest-egg

Thats a bit harsh. narrowmindjpg

I'm very curious as to what fits your definition of "the good of the game".

Also, I think it's odd that you imagine those involved in an endeavor such as this should act in any way other than how you describe (i.e. angling for maximum advantage).

The sites have a job - to make money, and also to grow the game so they can make even more money.

The players have a job - to make money, and to not do things that hurt the game, which would lead to them making less money.

Often, and in both cases, the first thing is in conflict with the second thing. In those cases, the first thing usually wins out, or some kind of compromise is struck. A bird in the hand and all that.

In any case, it should be fairly obvious that the net result of the stars changes is that stars will pay out millions less in rewards. It isn't clear where that money will go, but Isai's pocket is probably a good bet.

What's " good for the game" is certainly not a shift in policy that likely has a site making more while players make less.

I think his point was that PokerStars uses revenue from that to provide a more enjoyable experience for new players.

A reg, especially in higher stakes, plays because he makes enough money to willingly forego other employment opportunities to justify professional poker.

Viffer, I'm absolutely certain you'd wipe toilets for a living if it meant enough $ in your pocket, don't be a hypocrite. If professionals don't want to, or enjoy exercising their right to play poker professionally on a site, the greater good of the game is obviously compromised. Now you come in and pin vague amoral qualities on us as a collective (that you actually share!)

It's poker, not ****ing Tiddlywinks.

I'm confused, because it sounded like he said "The greater good is served when poker players keep more of the money" and then you went off on him.

lolololol

viffer acts like the audience here is the top 1% of the poker world. These are people that need to be able to grind to make a living, and now for some of them their ability to make money is going to be severely compromised.

"But you shouldn't complain about the changes, you should embrace them, and become an ambassador and help the game."

This is like telling all your employees you are going to stop giving them overtime because it is cutting into company profit, and then leaving on a brand new company jet.

Viffer, I have a lot of respect for you as a player and a person but you're ignoring some fundamental issues with your stance itt.

Trying to stop people from using software to improve at poker seems fairly futile considering it's used in every other aspect of life. The fact that the edges in poker were huge and now they're not says more about how long it took poker to catch up than anything else

I agree with your assessment that a fish probably feels like **** when it realises that a waiting list of players is there because he/she is a terrible player. But your concern for the fish is more a selfish thing - you think the fish won't come back because they will learn that they are a fish.

From an objective perspective it’s better that the fish learns to cop on – that person needs a wake-up call. It sucks for us but that’s reality.

Holding information from people who want to improve makes no sense to me. With the way things are now on the internet you might as well be pissing into the wind as withholding information from people. . The fact if anything is that sites need to lower their rake to help make poker a more viable income for grinders and to help fish keep their money for longer.

The more information that gets out there about poker and the more it evolves the more legitimate it becomes. The more legitimate it becomes the more people play it.

Surely, the OP has heard of "prop players". Basically, that's what grinders do for a site. Good deal all 'round, eh? PS just took a nasty 20%+ bite out of the 'wages" of their grinder-players. At least PS should have shown more class/respect---"sorry guys, just business but we'll make up some of this cut in future".

Sitting at max tables being a ****ing nit is not a job, as in you are not a Pokerstars employee. As soon as you all understand that, this will all be much easier to take.


Pokerstars did not hire a ton of nitty props for no apparent reason, Sorry.

when playing poker, players want to be better then their opponent. they seek out every leak and every missplayed hand to take advantage of the situation.

im sure viffer also trys to have an edge wherever he can. take advantage of every information the opponent gives you.

the whole poker scene is based upon having an advantage, thus you cant blame anyone that seeks better deals, more rakeback or ppl who have a hud. if its allowed and it earns you money - go for it.
on the other hand players want to fix their leaks, they want to maximize profits and minimize losses. rake for it self is a loss, but higher rake is even worse.

personally i hope some other pokersite takes the opportunity and rises to the top, so that stars does not have a monopoly. imo i can NOT trust PP and AP and the alternatives are all low traffic ...

Stars wanted lots and lots of tables running 24/7. How to GUARANTEE that? Bribe/pay people to play 60+ hours weekly. Tweaked their software to help the mass multi-tablers several times, massive VIP incentives beginning 2 years ago. I personally stopped playing cash tables because of the uber-nits. But PS was the Dr. Frankenstein that created those monsters.

yo viff, i think everyone is looking at htis the wrong way. if you think of poker in terms of BJ or craps its a better model. the pros are offering a "craps" game to the fish and the casinos are charging rent. the pros arent customers thery renters and if the rent is too high the the game stops. you may say the fish will still show, but they wont. fish want a full game 24/7 and if the pros cant set up shop the games will be sparse and fish will find the "action" casino. it seems counter intuaitive but the key to making this work is for the smaller games (under 600nl) to be nearly unbeatable due to rake and capped buy ins. see also: the Commerce. the most drastically raked yet efficient poker machine in the world...FOR EVERYONE!

Only small rooms need props. Stars is the last place in the world that needs them right now.

@blueodum. Definitely wrong, too drunk to explain why.

Stars run many poker variants, some mixed. Not all variants and many, many $ levels are less than 24/7. Stars may not need, it very much WANTS.