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Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE

10-31-2015 , 08:32 PM


this gives me hope it might be a prank, all the other headers are in russian and the menu item is blocked by the twitter etc icons, hoping they wouldn't be this amateur
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 08:39 PM
No way its a prank all the links on the site work who would bother this elaborate of a prank just to troll a few supernova elites.
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 08:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dec1ftw
obv is obv . they can save some and pocket everything .
FYP
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 08:46 PM
hahaha sad but true
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 08:51 PM
thsts not a prank. you can whois the domain.

https://who.is/whois/pokerstarsru.com
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 08:59 PM
page with changes is now deleted
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 09:03 PM
I thought it was widely expected that SNE is gone after next year?

Not offering VPP for high stakes games surprises me though.

Now we'll see if PokerStars does a better job of spending money to make players deposit.
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 09:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoGGz
and this one is special. I hope it's just a realllly bad translation.

Quote:
So, what will change for high-level players? On January 1st 2016, we will review the system of rewards, to limit the motivation to play just for the sake of winning.
This is really a bad translation. The right one would have "rewards" instead of "winning" clearly meaning VIP-rewards here.
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 09:40 PM


The selfless me wants Amaya to fail badly.

The greedy me hopes I can keep playing online poker for a living.



I wonder if Amaya realizes how much negative sentiment they've cultivated in the poker world. It ripples and affects everything. I wonder if their spreadsheets take that into account? I used to encourage people to give poker a shot. The idea of winning money playing a game is fascinating. These days I have zero passion in spreading the game and recommend all new players to stay away.



Question: What happens if Amaya's numbers sharply decline? Even more penny pinching? Reverting back to a winning formula? Bankruptcy? Getting bought back by the Scheinbergs? I'm having a hard time picturing the end game.

Last edited by He I Se N Be Rg; 10-31-2015 at 09:55 PM.
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 09:52 PM
good...flush out the mass tabling nits who stink up the games
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 09:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_r_K
good...flush out the mass tabling nits who stink up the games
Such a short sighted post.
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 09:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_r_K
good...flush out the mass tabling nits who stink up the games
There are better ways to fix mass tabling regs who make games boring by acting too slow. This one hurts everyone. So, no. Not good.
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 10:10 PM
In before $60+ 6max hyper being completely dead.
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 10:15 PM
Cross-posting:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeleaB
The changes would be more palatable if they weren't surrounded by the vomit-inducing public relation nonsense and lies. For anyone with a conscience that must have have been extremely painful to write. Actually, they probably had Daniel Negreanu's help.
------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by a_r_K
good...flush out the mass tabling nits who stink up the games
Such ignorance.
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 10:24 PM
From other thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by coon74
Here's the original Russian text of that (now deleted) page, feel free to insert it into any translator you like (it's night here in Russia already, I can't be bothered less to translate it with proper grammar) [Google's translation into English is in the next spoiler, it's generally correct]:

Spoiler:
Изменения в VIP-клубе в 2016 году

В 2016 году VIP-клуб ждут существенные перемены. Первое серьезное изменение - это введение простой и понятной системы VIP-ступеней, которая будет наглядно показывать, насколько Вы близки к следующему VIP-статусу. Подробнее о системе VIP-ступеней читайте здесь.

VIP-ступени - это несомненный шаг вперед к тому, чтобы сделать наш VIP-клуб более понятным и доступным большему количеству игроков. Особенно новая система понравится тем, кто играет ради удовольствия и время от времени, ведь с ее помощью они легко смогут ставить перед собой цели и достигать их за один сеанс игры.

Награды, получаемые игроками, также претерпят некоторых изменений. И хотя они коснутся, в основном, игроков самых высоких VIP-уровней, они практически не затронут большую часть наших игроков.

Большинство игроков со статусами от BronzeStar до GoldStar будут в среднем получать те же награды, что и сейчас. Однако стоит заметить, что некоторые из них будут получать меньше, а другие - больше. Средний процент наград по статусу останется неизменным или увеличится. Например, игроки ChromeStar будут в среднем наблюдать прирост наград в размере 10%.

Награды для игроков с более высоким статусом будут уменьшены, и еще более уменьшены для тех, кто каждый год зарабатывает более 200 000 очков VPP. Мы всегда считали, что покер - это игра, в которую играют ради удовольствия и соревнования. Однако в последние несколько лет награды VIP-клуба стали настолько соблазнительными, что мы неумышленно начали влиять на то, почему и как люди играют.

В результате, в настоящий момент мы наблюдаем большое количество игроков с высоким статусом, многие из которых играют в основном ради наград, а не ради соревнования и удовольствия, которое должен приносить покер. Эта группа игроков растет быстрее, чем все остальные группы. Так за последние 3 года количество игроков со статусом Supernova и Supernova Elite выросло на 27%.

Задачей VIP-клуба никогда не было фундаментальное изменение мотивации к игре в покер. Проанализировав ситуацию, мы пришли к выводу, что такое положение дел должно измениться, несмотря на то, что это может огорчить некоторых высокоуровневых игроков. Учитывая это, мы вносим ряд изменений в наш VIP-клуб, которые могут оказать значительное влияние в финансовом плане на игроков, которые получают наши самые высокие награды.

Принимая это решение, мы тщательно взвесили все "за" и "против". В течение нескольких месяцев мы проводили глубокий анализ и исследование, чтобы найти наилучшую модель для обеспечения долгосрочной жизнеспособности нашей покерной "экосистемы". Подробнее о том, почему это важно, а также о других изменениях читайте в нашем блоге.

Итак, что же изменится для высокоуровневых игроков? С 1 января 2016 года мы пересмотрим систему наград, чтобы ограничить мотивацию играть только ради самих наград. VIP-награды для игроков, которые впервые достигли статуса Supernova, по-прежнему будут составлять 28% вложенного рейка. Однако для тех, кто зарабатывает более 200 000 очков VPP, будет установлен максимум наград в размере 30%. Награды VIP-игроков со статусом PlatinumStar будут снижены примерно на 5%.

И наконец, чтобы возместить существенные затраты (включая высокую стоимость транзакций для депозитов и выводов средств) на предложение кэш-игр с высокими ставками, игроки более не будут получать очки VPP в пот-лимит и безлимитных играх с блайндами от $5-$10 и выше, в играх по миксу 8 игр - с блайндами $10-$20 и выше, и в других играх с фиксированным лимитом - с блайндами $10-$15 и выше.

Ниже Вы найдете краткое описание всех изменений, которые вступят в силу 1 января 2016 г.

Все награды будут предоставляться в виде новой валюты - в монетах Star Coins. Каждая такая монета имеет фиксированный эквивалент $0,01.

Все очки FPP будут конвертированы в монеты Star Coins 1 января по курсу 1,2 монеты Star Coins за 1 очко FPP.

До полуночи 31 декабря игроки могут использовать свои очки FPP для покупки денежных бонусов, турнирных билетов и различных товаров по текущим ценам в очках FPP.

Все цены, указанные в VIP-магазине, включая цены на турнирные билеты и денежные награды, будут обновлены 1 января в соответствии с тем, что 1 монета Star Coin эквивалентна $0,01.

Бай-ины турниров также будут переведены на монеты Star Coins.

Все текущие наград, включая очки FPP, особые VIP-бонусы и этапные бонусы, будут преобразованы в единую систему наград - монеты Star Coins.

Нажмите здесь, чтобы больше узнать о монетах Star Coins за каждую VIP-ступень.
Игроки, заработавшие особые VIP-бонусы и этапные бонусы в 2015 году, смогут купить их в VIP-магазине в 2016 году.

В среднем мы планируем добиться следующего процента наград по сравнению с текущей системой:

Статус Средние награды в 2016 г.
BronzeStar Без изменений
ChromeStar Увеличение до 10%
SilverStar Без изменений
GoldStar Без изменений
PlatinumStar Уменьшение на 5%
Supernova Уменьшение на 0-27%
200 000+ очков VPP Уменьшение на 44-60%

Множители очков VPP для всех лицензий будут следующими:

5,5 VPP за $1,00 USD или CAD оплаченных комиссий, 6,5 VPP за €1,00 EUR оплаченных комиссий и 8,25 VPP за £1,00 GBP оплаченных комиссий за любыми столами, независимо от количества игроков за столом.

Игры с микроставками:
Очки VPP за $1,00 рейка Очки VPP за €1,00 рейка
$0,01/$0,02 10 €0,01/€0,02 12
$0,02/$0,05 8.5 €0,02/€0,05 10
$0,05/$0,10 7 €0,05/€0,10 9

Эти изменения приведут к увеличению множителей VPP для UK, DK, BG и SH.
Эти изменения приведут к снижению множителя VPP для столов с 8 и более игроками.

Игроки не будут получать очки VPP в играх с пот-лимитом и без лимита с блайндами $5-$10 и выше, играх по миксу 8 игр с блайндами $10-$20 и выше и в других играх с фиксированным лимитом с блайндами $10-$15 и выше.

Зарабатывая очки VPP, Вы продвигаетесь вверх по VIP-ступеням. Подробнее об очках VPP читайте здесь.

VIP-магазин

Будут предложены следующие денежные награды без ограничения по VIP-статусу:

$25 - 2 500 Star Coins
$100 - 10 000 Star Coins
$1 000 - 100 000 Star Coins

Несколько примеров для билетов на многостоловые турниры, турниры сит-энд-гоу и спин-энд-гоу:

Билет на турнир сит-энд-гоу с бай-ином $0,10 - 10 Star Coins
Билет на турнир спин-энд-гоу или сит-энд-гоу с бай-ином $0,25 - 25 Star Coins
Билет на турнир спин-энд-гоу или сит-энд-гоу с бай-ином $1 - 100 Star Coins
Билет на турнир сит-энд-гоу с бай-ином $1,50 - 150 Star Coins
Билет на многостоловый турнир с бай-ином $3,30 - 330 Star Coins
Билет на многостоловый турнир с бай-ином $11 - 1 100 Star Coins
Билет на многостоловый турнир с бай-ином $215 - 21 500 Star Coins

VIP-фрироллы

Ежеквартальный фриролл на $1 000 00 для Supernova больше проводиться не будет.

В последнюю субботу каждого месяца будут проводиться следующие турниры:

Турнир для BronzeStar+ с бай-ином 25 FPP и призовым фондом $5 000
Фриролл для ChromeStar+ с призовым фондом $20 000
Фриролл для SilverStar+ с призовым фондом $30 000
Фриролл для GoldStar+ с призовым фондом $50 000

Каждую субботу будут проводиться следующие турниры:

Турнир для BronzeStar+ с бай-ином 25 FPP и призовым фондом $2 500
Фриролл для ChromeStar+ с призовым фондом $10 000
С 1 января 2017 года VIP-статус Supernova Elite будет упразднен
Игроки, получившие статус Supernova Elite в 2015 году, сохранят его в 2016 г.
Награды для VIP-игроков Supernova Elite в 2016 году будут снижены до максимума в 28-30%.

Для сохранения статусов Supernova и Supernova Elite больше не будет требоваться ежемесячное выполнение условий по набору очков VPP.

Награды Зала славы

Призы за достижение отметки в 5 000 000 и 10 000 000 очков VPP будут доступны до 31 декабря 2016 г.

При достижении отметки в 5 000 000 очков игрок может выбрать один из двух призов: часы Tag Heuer или подарочный сертификат Apple на $2 500

Консьерж-сервис более не будет предлагаться игрокам Supernova и Supernova Elite
Подробнее об изменениях VIP-клуба и других изменениях, целью которых является поддержание соревновательного духа такой замечательной игры, как покер, читайте в нашем блоге.
Google's translation (my corrections of wrongly translated words are in green):
Spoiler:
Changes in the VIP-club in 2016

In 2016, VIP-club offers significant changes. The first serious change - is the introduction of simple and comprehensible system VIP-steps that will demonstrate how close you are to the next VIP-status. Learn more about VIP-levels, see here.

VIP-level - is undoubtedly a step towards ensuring that our VIP-club more understandable and accessible to more players. Especially the new system will appeal to those who play for fun from time to time, because with its help they can easily set goals and reach them in a single game session.

Awards received by the players, will also undergo some changes. Although they affect mainly the players of the highest VIP-level, they practically [almost] do not affect the majority of our players.

Most of the players with the status of BronzeStar to GoldStar will on average receive the same rewards that now. However, it is worth noting that some of them will get smaller, and others - more. The average percentage of winning status [rewards for those statuses] will remain the same or increase. For example, players will ChromeStar average observed increase in awards in the amount of 10%.

Awards for players with higher status will be reduced, and further reduced for those who annually earns more than 200,000 points VPP. We have always believed that poker - [is] a game that is played for fun and competition.

However, in the past few years, VIP-Club awards have become so seductive that we unintentionally started to influence why and how people play.

As a result, at the moment we are seeing a large number of players with high status, many of which play mainly for decoration [rewards], not for the sake of competition and fun that poker should bring. This group of players is growing faster than all other groups. So for the last 3 years the number of players with the status of Supernova and Supernova Elite has grown by 27%.

The objective of VIP-club has never been a fundamental change in the motivation to play poker. After analyzing the situation, we came to the conclusion that this situation has to change, despite the fact that it may disappoint some high-level players. Given this, we make a number of changes to our VIP-club, which could have a significant impact in the financial plan for the players who get our highest award.

In making this decision, we carefully weigh the "pros" and "cons". Within a few months, we have conducted a deep analysis and research to find the best model for the long-term viability of our poker "ecosystem." Read more about why this is important, as well as other changes, please visit our blog.

So, what will change for high-level players? On 1 January 2016 we will review the system of rewards, to limit the motivation to play just for the sake of winning. VIP-prizes for the players, who first achieved the status of Supernova, will still be 28% invested rail. However, for those who earn more than 200,000 points VPP, it will set the maximum award of 30%. Awards VIP-players PlatinumStar status will be reduced by about 5%.

Finally, to recoup significant costs (including the high cost of transactions for deposits and withdrawals) on offer cash games with high stakes, players will no longer get points VPP in Pot Limit and No Limit with blinds of $ 5- $ 10 and up, the gaming mix 8 games - with blinds of $ 10- $ 20 and above, and in other fixed limit games - with blinds of $ 10- $ 15 and above.

Below you will find a brief description of all the changes that will take effect January 1, 2016

All awards will be given in the form of a new currency - coins Star Coins.

Each coin has a fixed equivalent of $ 0.01.

All FPP points will be converted into coins Star Coins 1 January rate of 1.2 Coins Star Coins for 1 point FPP.

Before midnight on December 31, players can use their FPP points to buy cash bonuses, tournament tickets and a variety of goods at current prices in points FPP.

All prices quoted in the VIP-shop, including prices for tournament tickets and cash prizes will be updated on January 1 in accordance with the fact that the Star Coin 1 coin equivalent to $ 0.01.

Tournament buy-ins will also be transferred to the coin Star Coins.

All current awards, including points FPP, special VIP-bonuses and bonuses landmark, will be transformed into a unified system of awards - Coins Star Coins.

Click here to learn more about coins Star Coins for each VIP-level.

Players who have earned special VIP-bonuses and bonuses landmark in 2015, will be able to buy them in the VIP-shop in 2016.

On average, we plan to achieve the following awards percent compared with the current system:

Title Average awards in 2016

BronzeStar Without changes
ChromeStar Increase to 10%
SilverStar Without changes
GoldStar Without changes
PlatinumStar The decrease of 5%
Supernova Decrease by 0-27%
200 000+ points VPP The decrease of 44-60%

Multipliers VPP points for all licenses will be as follows:

5,5 VPP per $ 1,00 USD or CAD commissions [rake] paid, 6,5 VPP for € 1,00 EUR paid commissions and 8,25 VPP for £ 1,00 GBP paid commissions for any table, regardless of the number of players at the table.

Game mikrostavkami [microstakes]:

Points VPP per $ 1.00 of rake Points VPP for € 1,00 in rake

$ 0.01 / $ 0.02 10 € 0,01 / € 0,02 12
$ 0.02 / $ 0.05 8.5 € 0,02 / € 0,05 10
$ 0.05 / $ 0.10 7 € 0,05 / € 0,10 9

These changes will increase the VPP multiplier for the UK, DK, BG, and SH.

These changes will reduce the VPP multiplier for tables with 8 or more players.

Players will not get points VPP in games Pot Limit and No Limit with blinds of $ 5- $ 10 and up, the games on the mix 8 games with blinds of $ 10- $ 20 and above, and in other fixed limit games with blinds of $ 10- $ 15 and above.

Earning points VPP, you move up the VIP-steps. Read more about the glasses [points] VPP read here.

VIP-Shop

Will be offered the following cash prizes with any VIP-status:

$ 25 - 2500 Star Coins
$ 100 - 10 000 Star Coins
$ 1 000 - 100 000 Star Coins

A few examples for tickets for multi-table tournaments, Sit & Go and spin-and-go:

Ticket for Sit & Go's with buy-ins $ 0.10 - 10 Star Coins
Tickets for the tournament spin-and-go or sit-and-gos with buy-in $ 0.25 - 25 Star Coins
Tickets for the tournament spin-and-go or sit-and-gos with buy-in $ 1 - 100 Star Coins
Ticket for Sit & Go's with buy-ins $ 1.50 - 150 Star Coins
A ticket for multi-table tournaments with buy-ins $ 3.30 - 330 Star Coins
A ticket for multi-table tournaments with buy-ins of $ 11 - 1100 Star Coins
A ticket for multi-table tournaments with buy-in $ 215 - 21 500 Star Coins

VIP-freerolls

Quarterly Freeroll $ 1 000 00 to Supernova will be no longer.

On the last Saturday of each month, will be held the following tournaments:

Tournament for BronzeStar + buy-in 25 FPP and prize money of $ 5000
ChromeStar + Freeroll with a prize pool of $ 20,000
SilverStar + Freeroll with a prize pool of $ 30,000
The freeroll for GoldStar + with a prize fund of $ 50,000

Every Saturday will be held the following tournaments:

Tournament for BronzeStar + buy-in 25 FPP and prize money of $ 2500
ChromeStar + Freeroll with a prize pool of $ 10,000

From 1 January 2017 VIP-Supernova Elite status will be abolished

Players who receive Supernova Elite status in 2015, to keep it in 2016

Awards for VIP-players Supernova Elite in 2016 will be reduced to a maximum of 28-30%.

To maintain status Supernova and Supernova Elite will no longer be required to be performed monthly on the conditions set points VPP.

Awards Hall of Fame

Prizes for achieving a mark of 5 million and 10 million points VPP will be available until December 31, 2016

Upon reaching the mark of 5 million points a player can choose one of two prizes: a Tag Heuer watch or a gift certificate to Apple's $ 2500

Concierge service will no longer be offered to players Supernova and Supernova Elite

Read more about the changes VIP-club and other changes, the purpose of which is to maintain the competitive spirit of such remarkable games like poker, read our blog.
Screenshots proving that the page existed:

http://i.imgur.com/5vx3xJ4.png
http://i.imgur.com/CjYpzxu.png
http://i.imgur.com/guCcnnp.png
http://i.imgur.com/uACxCqd.png
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 10:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LostOstrich
for the sake of balance, I'll chime in and point out that they're apparently increasing the VPP multiplier for UK players back to 5.5 from 5, which would be a consolation for some.
Only for USD tables. There's a reduction for everyone at EUR and GBP tables. It also states "These changes will reduce the VPP multiplier for tables with 8 or more players."
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 10:25 PM
Let's see how things pan out before screaming how the sky is falling. If they took down the page then maybe it was hacked or something and somebody was just trolling ps. If not then they'll probably come up with other things to somewhat compensate for this, and if not, well then there are other sites out there that'll take your action.
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 10:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soepgroente
Let's see how things pan out before screaming how the sky is falling. If they took down the page then maybe it was hacked or something and somebody was just trolling ps. If not then they'll probably come up with other things to somewhat compensate for this, and if not, well then there are other sites out there that'll take your action.
Let's be realistic. How likely is it that someone hacked the Russian Pokerstars site and decided to add a page of detailed upcoming VIP changes?

And if you expect compensation in any way, then the best you can hope for is a reduction in the FPP cost of a Pokerstars mouse mat.
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 10:50 PM
Cached version
Cached version with translator added

Yup, this page indeed existed
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 11:37 PM
Above 5-10 doesn't make vpps, the hell is this?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 11:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harleyy30040
Above 5-10 doesn't make vpps, the hell is this?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??
a 43% rake increase (compared to if they let you have the 30% rb).

the sn/sne cuts were expected, but this is what i find truly disturbing.
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 11:43 PM
Quote:
Finally, to recoup significant costs (including the high cost of transactions for deposits and withdrawals) on offer cash games with high stakes, players will no longer get points VPP in Pot Limit and No Limit with blinds of $ 5- $ 10 and up, the gaming mix 8 games - with blinds of $ 10- $ 20 and above, and in other fixed limit games - with blinds of $ 10- $ 15 and above.
lol


This has to be the final wake up call to all those 10-24 tablers who have been content to breakeven/lose before rakeback for the past few years. Figure out a new plan of attack NOW. Less tables, learn about table selection outside of level 1 status aka see fun player hunt fun player, find the lab, work on your game (actually work on your game and not "yeah I review hands in HEM after my 3k hand sessions" no you don't), I could go on and on but glglgl.

Also GG to most of the bad Zoom PLO regs below 100 and probably 200

Enjoy your 10% increase ChromeStars

Last edited by ChicagoJoey; 10-31-2015 at 11:56 PM.
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 11:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoGGz
Quote:
Average awards in 2016
Supernova - Decrease by 0-27%
200 000+ points VPP - The decrease of 44-60%

Are they ... maybe sort of making the calculation that if the current Supernova Elites play less, there'll be enough other pros willing to take their place at the tables, to offset the loss of volume? Pros who'll be making less rakeback than the SNEs to boot - so traffic/profits might even out, or something like that?


Guess the big unknown is how big the decrease'll be for Supernovas - maybe it'll be more than it should be, but maybe it won't be as high as 27%, if they'll lose too many players?


Such a big change that's going to be affecting so many people - and so many of the games are so hard these days, wow ..
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote
10-31-2015 , 11:57 PM
It also says fpps will be replaced by stars coins, value $0.01.

All fpps will be converted to coins at the end of the year at a rate of rate of 1.2 coins per fpp giving a value of $0.012 per fpp, this is the goldstar value for fpps.

Anyone with a higher status should make sure they convert their fpps before the end of the year or they'll get screwed of the value. Assuming all the info is accurate.
Pokerstars VIP club changes plan removal of SNE Quote

      
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