Other players who were betting on low numbers should feel as cheated as the casino.

Others who were betting high gained EV, but may suffer by being suspected of being accomplices.

Double 3/4 Grunch

I'm certainly no gambling law expert, but I read the rj article yesterday. They made made sure to write that they were working in a team, and part of that team somehow distracted the dealers. So I guess maybe that's where the criminal act is at. That seems difficult for a craps square like myself to believe. From the little I play the game. I remember it taking 4-5 people to run the game. It would stand to reason that one of there jobs would be to never look away from the dice, under any circumstance. It seems to me that the adultery commiting, ex coke head, golden boy stevie wynn is butt hurt he got beat out of some money due to his employees incompetence, and decided to stick it to these people. Just one craps squares opinion

Just goes to show you half these guys aren't thouroughly vetted.

But, really, gonna scam all that when I know Argentina is a hard, hard, country to be from. Not like you are prospering in Aregentina, why come to the U.S and scam us for 6 figures?

Well I guess I should read a whole thread, before I go double 3/4 grunching

+1

This doesn't make any sense. Yes people could have been betting in a manner that was unusually -EV, but since they could have just as easily bet in a way that was largely +EV then it's still a completely random outcome as far as they're concerned.

If it wasn't dealt with in-game, it shouldn't be dealt with post-humously IMO. Letting them continue to play while they were "cheating" is a freeroll for the casino regardless of the apparently weighted odds of its "cheating" players. Also, how are they quantifying the monetary values of winnings? What about rolls where the players lost, are they going to refund/void these as well because it was an illegal roll?

epic thread

How so? I'll admit that someone that may cheat the casino may not cheat people at poker but I would be interested to hear what different personality traits would make these two events so unlikely to be correlated.

The only thing I can think of is their value system as relates to business and persons. While I can see this being true for some, I would doubt it enough to totally see the two as completely separate actions. I think it is more likely that the personalities of both would be pretty similar.

Except if they were making +EV bets they could be suspected of being potential team members and harassed/86d by the casino.

fyp

fwiw... if this wasn't caught by the boxperson like everyone has been saying then its the casino's own fault... im sure heads will roll.

no way legal action can ever be taken here casino just grasping at straws asking for the money to be returned... all they can do is ban them.

sounds bout right imo ^

Well first off the casino is the one accusing people of cheating. Casino staff, both online and B&M, are in the habit of using terms like "cheating" and "fraud" as close proxies for any method which gains an edge over them or even any session that produces a win where they aren't sure they had the edge. If we take cheating to be anything that casinos frequently say it is then questions would arise such as "would a card counter be more likely cheat at poker?" I think that's a pretty easy "no".

But that's not even my point.

Casinos have every possible factor tilted in their favor. They have a large edge over the vast majority of players. They have a deep and sophisticated understanding of their business. They have countermeasures to stop whatever activities they don't like. Online they don't actually have to pay you unless they feel like it. In Nevada they have harsh laws written by members of their own industry to deter cheating and severely prosecute those who attempt it. They have huge advertising budgets and use mass marketing to induce players to come and lose. They know that the majority of losers lack even a basic understanding of the mathematics that ultimately ensure they will lose and the casinos not only assiduously avoid correcting their superstitious or fallacy-based understanding of the games, but instead do everything to encourage it. In short they run a scam.

I do believe there's a moral fault common to the circumstances described above and someone who has a friend signalling to him what a vacationing auto worker has as his hole cards so that he can raise or fold accordingly. I just think it's more likely to be found in the executive offices than at the craps table.

Wow someone has a major problem with casinos lol.

I dont think that you can just lump card counting in with sliding dice i would put it more on the same level as marking cards in BJ. Card counting is not against any rules and no casino employee is likely to sit there and tell you "hey dude quit counting." It largely goes undisciplined unless someone really sticks it to them consistently and they would never really go public and call counting cheaters nowadays... they would just trespass them. Any competent boxperson/dealers would have put a stop to this right away because it is against policies to allow dice to be thrown this way.

That being said I dont fault the people for keeping at it once they were being allowed to... assuming it wasn't an inside job or w/e, but I WOULD feel that someone who slides dice or marks cards in other games or any type of physical cheating gives off the sort of vibe that they may certainly be more likely to be cheats in poker. Not sure if that is a fair thing to do thats just how I would feel about them.


EDIT: Also i think that your stance on casinos being a "scam" is pretty far out there. Saying that the vast majority of players dont know that the odds aren't in their favor is completely ridiculous. Thats not to say that casinos dont exploit people at time and there is obviously a problem with addiction in gambling, but calling it a scam is obviously not true.

FWIW, in the Griffin book, which is what casinos use,(used?) to identify cheats, card-counters are lumped in with them, with little to no distinction made.

wat? I asked how the personality traits required of a person who cheats the house versus individuals are different like you claimed, not some sort of justification for cheating.

When they're doing this they're cheating other players who are betting on lower numbers so cheating the house argument is fairly invalid imo

Vero and Leo practicing the technique of slide dicing in their yate.



I clarify that she is my friend and thats not true,or maybe yes lol,bt for sure they were playing some game

casinos ban anybody who is skilled enough to regularly beat them out of money. doesn't matter if your only edge is a sharp mind with the ability to keep tack of numbers. they ARE A SCAM. You are there to LOSE money to them...the few who win provide the stories and hope for the vast majority of the losers to keep coming back.

I've always been curious about the eye in the sky. First time I went to my local casino they carded me. Ever since then the guards wish me luck.

Does the camera recognize every face that walks in?

God I hope not

I'm pretty sure they employ some type of facial recognition software, but I don't think it's to welcome folks. It's more likely a shared database among casinos nation or even worldwide that categorizes and identifies cheaters, scammers, blacklisted folks, and skill players who win via counting cards and other methods that are not illegal necessarily but are unwelcome at the tables.

Every Justice Center or major Courthouse in America has this software. I've been pulled out of line for not being in their database, which they found suspicous. Turns out, they have all BMV/DMV records with pics from our liscences in their database, and since I don't have an ID (haven't for years; it's kind of personal protest and laziness combined) I'm not in their system. So, I get the third degree anytime I do anything anymore, it's getting really annoying and I might have to break down and get an ID, if not a driver's liscence. It's a shame, I've been safely driving without a liscence for years now (used to have CDL Class A, so trust me, I can handle a little car).

Well..Hi. Taking advantages of other people mistakes is not cheating. We all poker players know that. Casino experts also know it is not against the law.
That was a " wynn -wynn" situation if you know what i mean. They let us throw the dice how ever we wanted to: If they loose, we keep the money, if they "wynn" they go to jail. Thats inducing and that is actually against the law.
Even if we were cheating, would be nothing more that returning the favor. Casino experts know that casinos cheat people all time, taking big cards out of BlackJack decks for example. Anyway what they said we do is not even tipifyied as a felony. There is a legal void there.Thats all i have to say.
And to my dear friend roberfripp, you wil pay for this lil joke. Im still in contact with some very bad people ive met in jail . In second place " it wasnt me, in that voice".

solid bump

Pretty sick they managed to actually do "dice control", I thought it was virtually impossible