Assuming you mean "before rake." (or maybe "after net rake")

I agree, the price of something is post discount. So the actual rake is post rakeback. We wouldn't say "Lol that shopkeeper is really a losing businessman, but he just gets discounts on the the stock he buys in."

On the other hand, in poker though if the % discount is too heavily volume based (or based on some kind of "team pro" status) then it's legitimate to say some people would be losing if they paid roughly the same rake as everyone else. Like a shopkeeper who only makes a profit because he gets his stock especially cheap from a wholesaler owned by his family.

Unreal how some people twist the facts, so it suits their opinion ...

you can't ignore, that some folks grinded formats they couldn't beat. and yes rake is a factor to tell, if you can beat a game or not. if you start arguing "but, if there would be no rake ...." someone could also add "if i would have more fish at the table, i could win"

so bottom line is, that some people started playing games, they couldn't beat without RB. like some of those SNE hard core volume grinders. i don't blame anyone. they saw an opportunity and worked hard. but nevertheless they couldn't beat the game ... or they could, if they wouldn't have played a bazillion games at the same time ... but hey they 'maximized their EV'.

so please, can we leave the "no rake wet-dreams" out of this discussion? if you can't beat a game, b/c the rake is too high, then you can't beat the game. if this is fair or not, is just a matter of someone's own perception.

.

So i've read some peoples comments, read some podcast from the live bro name limon from live at the bike etc & come to the conclusion that the regs who aren't appose to the rake increase or actually think it's in favour to them is delusional.

The view some winning regs here have is: The breakeven multi-tabling rake back pros now will lose & leave the game which makes it better for me & the site "benefits" because those rakeback pros is bad for the game which helps the poker economy.

The truth: Both these big winning regs & especially the sites lose when these marginal winners leave there website. Rakeback pros gladly play formats like zoom, hyper turbos etc, because they prefer the multi-tabling aspect & they play games where they accept low edge & garner huge amounts of rake for the website. Big winners primarily are the bum hunters who only play with fish, play low-medium volume & rake less for the site at that limit, they also make the fish experience worse cause the fish loss rate is higher vs them. Let's not discount the fact that rakeback pros actually play without fish alot as due to the multi-tabling nature they won't leave the table as quickly as the bum hunting big winning pros, go look at the reg tables and see for yourself the horrible tables loads of regs stay at. At the end of the day pricing out the volume grinders while keeping the big winners is not going to magically make the games better, the big winners winrate will decrease or may not even have games to play & the site will lose cause less players willing to accept low edge formats/games and players in general will pay less rake due to this.

N.B: We're seeing 888 poker implementing measures in place where the high volume grinders who left & recently logged back into there servers receiving incentives in the form of extra bonuses to redeposit & keep playing as clearly the site felt some sort of drop in profits due to there changes.

Lastly if the websites didn't want mass multi-tabling pros cause they hurt the games so hurt, the best measure would be to just cap the amount of tables people can play, this increase is just to push the limits to where the price can be increased to keep players in the game to maximize profit & nothing more. There will be cutbacks if it backfires, but ultimately the website is just trying to maximize profit & thinking 100% about there bottom line & nothing more, it's probably the smart play in this climate due to poker popularity decreasing, but let's not try to make it out to be something it's not please.

End rant/

so instead of a point, you come up with nothing ... so please explain, why ppl, who need RB to be winners, are beating the games or why 'zero rake fantasies' are valuable itt.

PS announced lobby changes, that will hurt bumhunters AND i wouldn't be surprised, if there will a table cap at some point. so i think your theory, that mass grinding RB winners will be missed, fails ...

@888: maybe you missed the recent announcement, but they 'want to take back the game' ... no details, but they said they want to get rid of "unfair games" and "unfair bonuses" ... so after all the years of recreational player model' PR emails i'm pretty sure, they don't go back to old standards. so bottom line, let's see after the summer, what PS, PP and 888 have to offer

I don't think anybody thinks these changes are good for them, or good for the games (except Dnegs obv). The argument behind the exodus of mass-grinders being good for the site isn't due to it being good for the poker economy, it's because there is more money left on the site for the site to rake.

I guess it depends on whether you see rakeback as a promotion/bonus/extra, or if you just see it as a part of the rake.

Personally I don't see how rakeback isn't just part of the effective rake. You pay some rake, and you get some of that back, leading to a net rake value. In other words rake = rake paid - rakeback.

If you take that as the case, then anybody that is profiting after rakeback is beating the games. They are beating the other players and they are beating the net rake, even if they are not beating the immediate rake charged in-game.

This is probably a whole other arugment tho....

my point is, that some players made a decision, to play a game they couldn't beat (b/f RB), because they calculated, it's EV for them. e.g. mass grind with net loss & get bonus > grind less with net profit.

personally i think it's an "abuse" (maybe sounds too harsh, i'm no native speaker, so my vocabulary is limited) of the bonus system in general. but like i said previously. they saw an opportunity and poker is about maximizing your EV. so i don't blame anyone. actually the opposite case, they made the correct decision.

nevertheless rakeback is a promotion, which means, it's not everlasting. this implies, that relying on RB as a steady income is some sort of false thinking.

so i stick to my point, they couldn't beat the games. it's not meant in a deprecatory way, b/c they knew exactly what they do.

anyway, i don't want to derail much more. basically i just think this posting

is wrong. Not in every case, but there are plenty of 'losing players', who just aimed for the RB.

I would be incredibly surprised. Tablecap is BY FAR teh easiest solution and has been discussed for years. It would make games better overnight, it would almost eliminate ALL eastern euro NL10 and below pro's, would make depo's last 3x, etc.

BUT it would hurt at least their shortterm/midterm bottomline and Stars is way too greedy for tis

4table cap
no table selection
HUDs banned altogether
might happen one day

Stars mailed me today about some upcoming changes such as removing all references to VPP in the lobby/cashier but players would still be earning points to maintain their status (i.e. Supernova).

I mailed back asking for more details and here's what I got.

R I C H D Y N A M I C
I
C
H
D
Y
N
A
M
I
C

dynamic ? oh the level of fückage ranges from very mild to 85% .

Stars = overwatch now

It's very exciting. We'll get chests that might contain loot such as:
- Random items to customize your avatar in an unique way.
- 1$ tickets to Spin n Gos (where you can then earn millions if you're lucky).
- Dneg videos explaining why more rake is better.
- Some cash (not many) from time to time.

In b4 Congratz you have won a ticket to the 5000$ allin shootout with 50k players! So in the future there is no way to estimate your rakeback? Gues I wont be playing at stars after all then.

E wonder how much does one chest cost?

E who cares party is offering 20-40% paid once a week.

partys new program will offer up to 40%..will be interesting to see how these different approaches will turn out

I was a negative nancy but then I won $100 at card match two days ago so cut my rakeback and bring the Porsche chests imo ainec.

Fair play to Party for stepping up to the plate. First good thing to happen for poker in a long time.

so why do people get so offended when stars does the same?

Why do people get offended when shops, utility companies, rail companies etc increase their prices?

Wait is the chests thing real? what the **** lol

I can see it now,
In our new rewards system instead of simply offering you $10 for your 1k points like normal we have chests that you can win CRAZY prizes such as $1-$3 spin n go tickets, $1k all in shoot out tickets, extra card matches per day, OR EVEN $10!!!!! You are going to love it!!!!!!

Thank you partypoker for up to 40% rakeback in cash coming up !

Don't assume that this is correct just now. We have to wait until Dnegs explains why the loot system is better than the new 40% Party Poker rakeback.

i completed silverstars this month. do i have to get level 5 this month to stay silverstars next month or do i need to get to level 5 silverstars next month?

completing silver in May, u keep silver until end of June

just click ur vip level info box and it will give all ur status & date details

Honestly this is just laughable, and they think changing their name from amaya to the stars group inc is gonna do anything?

Cmon guys you are honestly a joke now, stop with this. or dont idc but you will die sooner than later in that case, keep going!