[x] token anarchist ITT

Pokerstars.com :

Stakes higher than €0.10/€0.25

Number of Players......Rake per Pot...............................Max Rake
2................................€0.05 for each €1 in the pot...........€0.50
3-4..............................€0.05 for each €1 in the pot...........€1.00
5-10.............................€0.05 for each €1 in the pot...........€2.00


Pokerstars.fr :

Stakes higher than €0.10/€0.25


Number of Players.........Rake per Pot...........................Max Rake
2...............................€0.0768 for each €1 in the pot.........€1.50
3-4.............................€0.0768 for each €1 in the pot.........€2.50
5-10.............................€0.0768 for each €1 in the pot.........€3.50

No flop €0.02 for each €1 / Max Rake €1


Pokerstars uses the tax as an excuse to make more profits. Indeed the rake should be 5% up to €2 (assuming we play 5-10 handed) + 2% up to €3.5 and 2% up to €1 for hands with no flop.

In fact the rake is 7.68% up to €3.5 and 2% up to €1 for hands without flop.

Because what they're doing is just indefensible

As I already posted before you ignore the fact that Stars gives FPPs on the 2% of the tax related rake. So Stars does not use tax to make more profits.

I wasn't aware of this. Thanks for pointing this out.

Finally a proper, thinking response.


Oh and France, between this and the HADOPI you probably love Sarkozy so much that you would vote for him again if you could.


Also, WTF is this poker market segmentation thing, I thought the whole thing of playing on the internet was to make the game available for everyone. If every market branches off on their own like that, who the hell is the people who are left supposed to play against? I can't play vs. Norwegians, I can't play vs. Italians, I can't play vs. the French, etc. etc. Soon I'll have to play myself heads-up if the idiots continue legislating like they have.





If I don't understand how the conveyor belt at the Airport works, and therefore I cannot be expected to make rules concerning it. If I can't read or speak Chinese, I can't be expected to establish correct grammar for it. Why do politicians who don't even understand the basic nature of poker insist on making all sorts of laws for it, which if you played just one hand at one ooint of your life you would quickly realize that it's bull****? How is this tolerated?

Sounds very reasonable. There should be national and international sites. National such as the one you describe and International such as PokerStars.com currently is, and this should count for all countries.

No taxes on poker winnings ever!

Ah, Utopia dreaming, but hey.

Ignorant

Regulation and taxation can work. The taxes just can't be ridiculous like taking rake preflop.

That strikes me as taxation that was written by people who really do not understand the game of poker at all. Just like the moronic politicians in Florida who want taxes on every pot you win instead of your net winnings, and won't let you deduct your losses... play a month of 2/4 and you can owe the government like two million dollars on your $20k in net winnings

This is why we need to be very careful not to be accepting of broken regulation, because this is exactly what it can do. Make poker legal and nearly 100% unbeatable just like in France.

It doesn't have to be that way though.

For example, if they doubled the rake and fully legalized internet poker in the USA, and paid half that doubled rake to the government, games would still be beatable even in their current state, but after the legalization they'd probably be beatable for way more than they are even today because poker being fully legitimized is worth something like a tripling or quadrupling of everyone's current winrates

There would be no restrictions on deposit methods and advertising. People could drop $10,000 onto their poker account with an AmEx. We'd have the Party 10/20 days back

The rake hike on PokerStars.fr is like what, 5x the rake of PokerStars.com? More? The players can't handle that, everyone will lose. We can handle it doubling though.

Kinda says something about the french market huh?

With a little icing on top of the cake to make it more expensive : check the real rake rates then think about it.

Is it the new law that force them to run MTT with €100 on Pros that never show up ... ?

As a reminder, the law only allow them to spread PL omaha not NL omaha :



I read on different French forums and requested myself they could spread FL holdem games : they don't even spawn one single table or SNG.

They don't care... but my dough sitting on moneybookers right now won't either.

Is .fr rake much different than US live rake when you include the $1 tokes?

as a former 3/6+ reg on ps.com i have to get money on 5 different sites to get enough games to play as many hands as i used to.

oh yeah, also : 7% FKN PERCENT

SRSLY

I am aware. hence why I took all my money off .com

THERE IS NO REAL 'EXTRA' RAKE!... besides the government tax.


The only real difference is low volume players are going to have more rake burden because they receive less rewards. High volume supernova and above players are actually paying less rake, minus the rape your government gives you.

^^^
LOL at people trying to defend this raperake

"Average 30% return" is a super-exaggeration, at least for lower stakes games.
With the first deposit bonus, players may arguably get back something close to that, but once you clear it, the "return" is over. Afterwards you receive measly 10 euros back for every 1000 VPPs earned. It's not even anywhere near that 30%, considering that, for example, a 10NL player pays more than 10 euros in rake every 500 hands and earns only around 70, maybe 80 VPPs at most over that span. He'll be extremely lucky to get even a 10% return.

Btw, almost the same kind of return we got at the .COM from the lower rake.

Good post. Now I understand why so many people get pissed off every time a new law is put in place, it's because the politicians making the laws don't know **** about what they're doing, except "Oh this is going to bring more tax money, this must be great".
Good thing HADOPI is a massive fail though

You don't know how right you are.
The first draft of the law made the 2% government tax on every pot UNCAPPED. Some people in the French poker community managed to talk some sense into them to have it capped at 1 euro.

Not quite sure why any non french would want to come play on the .fr.

On PS for instance the rake is a killer in low/midstakes, and on 2/4 and 5/10 you have some of the strongest french players like alexonmoon gohanounet and basouli who play regularly 25/50 and 50/100 on FT. Some other rooms are just deserts (chili for instance).
Thanks for proxys lol

Moving to Ireland very soon. This rake is just absurd.

Yeah, tha'ts great, we got a lot more VPPs, but we paid a lot more rake... And we don't hit 100% rakeback on extra rake !!! So we lose a lot in this ****ing change.

GG Stars. With all the other websites, I think you will lose a lot of traffic (two 2/4 SH right now, zero 1/2 SH great!!!)

^
Well, the idea of taxfree PokerStars games sounds really good, if those stupid french taxing laws will change and there'll be normal rake at .fr I'd certainly start playing there myself.

LOL!

look our italian RAKE

With deposit bonus you get much more than 30% - about 55%.

Let's make some calculations. You deposit 500 euro and get 500 euro bonus and need to earn 10,000 VPP to clear. While earning 10,000 VPP you pay 1,333 euro in rake (7.5 VPP for each euro). With 10,000 VPP you get 120 euro of stellars. Assuming you are silver on average (750 VPP/month) you also made 15,000 FPPs and can buy 3 cash bonuses 40 euro each for 13,500 FPPs. Summary:

€1,333 - rake
€500 - bonus cleared
€120 - stellar bonuses
€120 - cash bonuses

740/1333 = 55%

After you clear the bonus, it depends on your volume, but it will be over 10% even with a moderate volume and can be over 50% with a high volume.

P.S. Stars doesn't get all of your €1,333 in rake. If we guess that 20% of this rake is collected for no flop hands, it's €267 tax. For the remaining €1,066 collected in post flop hands, Stars pays 26% tax which is another €277.

So your net rake during this time is €593, French government gets €544 and Stars gets €49.

paste from another thread to explain things in italy:

I play since 2005 and i was a regular on nl1000 ipoker and i m italian.
Right now we have .it websites "legal" with only mtt\sng <100euros.If we play there is taxfree.
We can t play on stars.com .

We have sites like ftp\ipoker blocked but you can play there downloading with opendns.In that case should be taxfree if server is in europe.

Right now there is a law that should be approved at the beginning of next year that will allow cash games(maybe max NL1000) and sng\mtt with max buyin 250euros on .it websites(ipoker.it\stars.it\party.it).

I tried to make account on stars.fr they say we must play only on stars.it then we tried to make account on winamax.fr and it worked bcs they don t have license to operate in italy but in europe so winamax is like a .eu i think.
But rake is too much high.

Grunched thread, but one question:

Seeing as this is a French-only site, does Pokerstars offer a "Surrender" button that returns half your bet?