Interesting, when do you declare, right at beginning of the hand?

Showdown.

I feel like that probably isn't one of "the popular games that get play at the WSOP".

blind man's bluff

From theory perspective, limit seven card stud gets my vote. If your background is NLHE or PLO, the entire premise of limit stud is different. You could tighten your ranges and be okay for an orbit of limit HE or FLO8. However, stud would be as if you are driving a top fuel dragster on a grand prix road course. Totally unprepared for the game, even if you are familiar with the essentials of game theory and bluffing.

i consider skill how far below i am compared to people who are good at the game and how quickly i could get to their level with proper study

to me the 2 games that stand out are PLO8 and PL 2-7 triple draw. these are not commonly spread and u will generally only find them in mixed games, but play them with good players and you will often feel lost.

PL 2-7 can play insanely big or nitty based on how u wanna approach it, but i guarantee you the best players will put you in a noose when you're out of position in this game type more than any other. and to me thats a high level of skill.

stud is an okay answer but it's basically limit concepts with more memory skills required. while it takes a while to learn this skill, i don't believe there's a great skill gap between tight solid ABC stud players and world class stud players.

Here one way to look at it (and an argument I have wit friends). Take someoen that’s wnebr really played poker before but can study with an expert and has unlimited bankroll to learn a game. How Long would it take them to be able to beat (or at least hold their own) in mid stakes games (say 40-80 limit and 5-10 big bet).

2-7 limit is Maybee 3 days.
NL and plo is super fast if they want to short stack at first.
Razz/stud 8 o8 relativity simple to beat it they play tight.

I think limit Holden would likely be the most difficult game to beat (or at least take the longest).

2-7 nl sd

A reasonable way of thinking about it is to set level 1 as a beginner who has just learned the rules. If level 2 is someone who has an expectation of 2 BB/ 100 hands (or any arbitrary win rate) over level 1, and level 3 has an expectation of 2 BB/ 100 vs. level 2, etc., what level would be the best player in the world?

I'm pretty sure the highest number would have to be NLH or PLO. That's why these games are the most commonly played, because there's enough complexity for the 99-percentile players to squeeze profits from the 90-percentile and on down. Stud, LHE, and the other games just don't offer the same opportunities for the best players to outplay merely good players.

I don't know who thinks Stud 08 is relatively simple, I think the stud games are the hardest.

5 card triple flop plo

theoretically shouldn't it be that the deeper you are in terms of blinds and the more different bet sizings you're allowed to use makes for the highest skill cap?

It is a very interesting question, not least because "skill" in poker is a combination of innate ability, knowledge and execution. The three have some overlap but are present in varying degrees of importance depending on the poker variant.

Examples:

In limit Razz you don't require so much innate ability but you do require a huge amount of knowledge regarding equities pre and on all streets. With the required knowledge, execution levels are somewhere in the low to mid range as there are only a few dead cards to remember and bets are all limit.

In No Limit Hold'em innate ability is not so important but knowledge and execution are hugely important.

Someone mentioned 5 card Triple Flop (Board) Omaha. This is a game of a lot of known information with about 25% to 40% of the deck revealed during the hand, plus some extra card removal one can use in some scenarios. So you don't need much knowledge, but you need a lot of innate ability and a decent amount of execution skill.

Overall, I would tend to agree with others that have said that 7 Card Stud High is maybe the game requiring the most skill, as it requires a lot of knowledge, quite a lot of innate ability and a reasonable amount of execution, so maybe it scores the highest overall if we assign an out of 10 rating for each of the three components.

I also go with Stud (Pot limit > no limit / limit). But why is Stud High > Stud Hi/Lo

I would have rated Hi/Lo more difficult than Hi, because you have to concentrate on two outcomes to scoop your opponent.

Because a lot of decisions are more automatic in Hi/Lo.

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pot limit courchevel hi lo

love that game!

This is an amazing thread. I've played and done very well for over a decade in NL hold em cash games and it seems like every year for past few years, the wsop peaks my interest in branching out and learning these other games. Mercier 2 years ago was perhaps the most captivating with his ongoing bracelet bets and him jumping into every single event.

Seems like if the goal is bracelets/fame in poker, trying to branch out and learn these other games is a no brainer; anyone have thoughts on this?

I'm going to vote for PLO8. Although I might vote for Five Card Draw if anybody ever played it anymore. Such a great game, spread far too rarely these days and slowly disappearing it seems.

An interesting related question might be, "In which game do you see the biggest gap in skill level, between a crusher and an average rec?"

Although the stud games are seemingly easier to master, I might venture that the skill gap between the best players and the average guy is larger in the stud games than in the flop games.

guts

POWER UP HOLDEM

These "declare" questions really date me (I'm 53)...growing up, virtually all home games were played "declare", and until the PL/NL boom around 15 years ago, the vast majority of games were limit and declare as well.

For social home games, it is much more fun IMHO...however, that ship has sailed and it's hard to find anyone who wants to play limit home games.

As for most skilled, I think PLO8 has the biggest discrepancy...I play on a weekly basis in my home game. People still don't understand freerolls, wraps, going for 3/4 or scoop. And most importantly, people will play for high once a low is on board...and ship all their chips.

I think it was Phil Ivey I remember saying 7 card stud has the most skill, but also the most luck.

Deuces are wild by far the most skilled game