Hmm, well several years ago he was playing 20/40 limit OE with me. He seemed like a winning player in that game, but nothing amazing. And then when he was ready to go he left his chips on the table for an extra 10 minutes to make sure he got his players card swiped for the extra $2 in comps.
Layne's HOF case is frankly very weak, and when compared to arguably the most important person in this history of poker, it's a complete travesty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob
I'm a poker pro who had never heard of Isai Scheinberg, and you are saying he might be the most important person in the history of poker??
I'm going to give Punker the benefit of the doubt here and say he meant Isai Scheinberg, the founder of PokerStars, to arguably be the most important person in the history of ONLINE poker.
Chris Moneymaker is easily the most important person in the history of online poker (as well as being one of the very most important for poker overall).
Punker used the word "arguably" for Scheinberg. And Chris Moneymaker won his seat in the Main Event of the 2003 World Series of Poker through an $86 satellite tournament at Scheinberg's PokerStars online poker card room. Pokerstars was by no way the only online poker site doing satellites, but PS did a crap ton more satellites than just about anyone else, thereby making it more likely for a Moneymaker effect.
If you want to keep beating up on Punker, be my guest, I was just trying to help a brother out.
I'm going to give Punker the benefit of the doubt here and say he meant Isai Scheinberg, the founder of PokerStars, to arguably be the most important person in the history of ONLINE poker.
No, I meant the most important person in the history of poker, period.
When you think about how many people play poker, how many of them got started on PokerStars? Is there a single professional poker player who hasn't put in immense volume on PokerStars?
When you think of all the sites that failed (to list a few: FTP, UB, PKR, all of which were top 5 online sites at one time or another) and had the potential to completely destroy the trust in online poker, how many were bailed out by Isai Scheinberg?
When you think of all the players who had funds locked up in those sites, every single one was paid back by the efforts of Isai Scheinberg?
When you see the advancement of legal online poker in the US, how much of that was due to the efforts of Isai Scheinberg?
If I was going to qualify my statement, I might say "this century" at worst. You can convince me to consider whoever invented the game of poker, maybe Benny Binion for founding the WSOP, potentially Henry Orenstein/Steve Lipscomb for the WPT&hole card camera. Maybe even Amarillo Slim for publicizing the game at a time when the best players preferred to keep it in the backroom. Moneymaker was a match, but Scheinberg/PokerStars was the dynamite that caused the explosion.
If I was going to qualify it with "online", there would have been no "arguably".
His induction into the poker HOF is the perfect time to revisit perhaps the most cringe worthy attempt at a reality show these eyes have ever seen.
"Life in the Fast Layne"
Not to spoil it for you, but it shows our wild friend Layne as takes his bank roll up and down as he parties with the likes of very drunk and sweaty people like Gavin Smith and Mark Kroon!
For those of you who don't want to waste 30 minutes of your life on what is arguably the worst attempt at reality TV let me give you some of my own favorite highlights. (and I have watched this no less than 10 times in my life, but I am kinky that way!)
It starts remarkably well with his manager having a tough time waking Layne up at 12:00 for the start of the tourny in Aruba. You can tell this scene is totally real and not staged because Layne who is *passed out* in bed already has a mic securely attached to his shirt.
After getting a manicure and working out, we see Layne negotiating a last longer bet with Phil Hellmuth friend and perhaps the holder of the greatest world series blow up, Mark Kroon. (tried to find the link to the blow up be he like 5 bet shoves on the river to a guy that has made the nut straight. or something like that)
Next, after Layne busts out of the tourny we get to hear his manager compare Layne to Michael Jordan.
Carrying on with our story, Layne's fat drunk and sweaty friends Gavin and Mark are mad that Layne isn't showing up to "Phil Hellmuth's VIP penthouse party" The shots of the party are just as "VIP" and "party" as you would expect from an affair with such a title. We do get to see that Annie Duke is there so it DEF is A list only., We get to see a shot of Laynes manager saying that Layne is just too tired from all the mental stress. (editors note: more likely he is hung over/and or passed out drunk). Carrying on with are story, the two fat sweaty guys try, and ultimately succeed, in busting into Laynes room where they mount him and do some harmless dry humping.
Next we are off to Arizona, where we do what people in the "Fast Layne" do. Gun range of course! then a little bit of golf with Hellmuth and Jeff Madsen
The Arizona trip is for some sort of charity tournament which isn't all bad because it does result in Brandon Cantu getting tazed! (No ****!)
At the charity tournament we are blessed with hearing Young MC rap and we get to see Sgt. Slaughter put Layne in a full nelson!
As a bonus, Jen Tilly's breast to make an appearance!
How this train wreck (the show not Layne) didn't get picked up to show right after survivor on Wednesday nights I will never know!
So for all of you saying Layne isn't HOF worthy, you sure as hell have never seen the below reality TV pilot! it really must be seen to be believed!
(In four parts as it is the only way I could find on youtube!)
I think the move to one inductee is probably a mistake. If it stays that way there will be deserving people who never make it.
I agree completely that Isai Scheinberg deserves to get there at some point. At its peak, PokerStars was a completely game-changing company in a number of ways. The playing experience, scale and quality of operations, and quality of interaction with customers were truly remarkable. I have never experienced as good support in any other company, not just in poker companies. Without them, the boom would have been much smaller, and they raised the game of their competitors.
Sadly, since the change of ownership, every single change has been in the wrong direction.
The easiest solution to the Poker HOF debate is to just mass induct anyone and everyone of notability who appeared frequently on WSOP or WPT from 2003 to 2009. Provided you aren't a scumbag, isn't that what will inevitably happen anyways?
A couple of the people you've mentioned above have disgraced themselves in one way or another, but unfortunately, you can not take away their poker accomplishments on the felt...
Not to mention, there's plenty of questionable characters in the Poker HOF.... go back to guy inducted in 1992... he had some issues if the rumors were true...and as much Stu Ungar (HOF 2001) is poker folklore, he was known to spit at dealers -- if those stories are indeed true. (I won't even go into the drug addiction issues).
but at the end of the day, I would be interested in poker players taking a poll on whether or not they really care about the Poker HOF. I personally don't.
Men is one of the biggest cheater ever and is awful at poker
There's no way he's even a winning player the last ten years or so and he's never been a high stakes winning cash player
On the memorial video posted by Flacks's friends and family, every time Ted Forrest said he couldn't tell a lot of stories out of deference to Layne's family, all I could think about was how when I played with Layne (during a time when poker media was reporting he was sober) he did a lot of drinking and talking about banging hookers. It was pretty low grade obnoxious, and he seemed like a high grade loser. But he was great for the game, so no one was complaining.
I will add, possibly the stakes were too low for him, so "great for the game" could have actually been him giving away a ton of money at 5/10 in the hopes of getting it kicked up to 10/20+ and recouping his losses, I don't know.
But is he right for the poker HOF? It is an organization where members elect new members, and they voted (I assume) for him, so he gets in. I don't really have a problem with that.
Hmm, well several years ago he was playing 20/40 limit OE with me. He seemed like a winning player in that game, but nothing amazing. And then when he was ready to go he left his chips on the table for an extra 10 minutes to make sure he got his players card swiped for the extra $2 in comps.
Forest was in a lot of early TV final tables and played like 300/600 limit then. However, he seems like a feel / read player and does not play that well technically. Also, was he really winning in those tournaments and high stakes cash games?
Why is Patrik Antonius in the HOF?
There should be lots of good picks becoming eligible in the next few years.
I guess Elizra got in because the voters were the people whose games he made rather than the people he owed money to.
Forest was in a lot of early TV final tables and played like 300/600 limit then. However, he seems like a feel / read player and does not play that well technically. Also, was he really winning in those tournaments and high stakes cash games?
Some interesting stories in "The professor, the banker and the suicide king" about Forest just rocking up to play 3 handed in a game with Andy Beal on his own dime, he def had some guts and ability. Also I have read that he was an early investor/owner in Ultimate Bet so probably made some $$$ there.
I would be interested in poker players taking a poll on whether or not they really care about the Poker HOF. I personally don't.
This is part of the reason I care about this. I think the fact that the old boys club inducting their friends who don't deserve it (looking at you Lyle Berman) play a big part in why people don't care. If the Hall doesn't take itself seriously, it's hard to expect anyone else to.
I know I'm treading much of the same path that Punker traveled, but oh well...
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob
Chris Moneymaker is easily the most important person in the history of online poker (as well as being one of the very most important for poker overall).
As Punker noted and as I (and others) have stated many times, I largely disagree with that statement. A lot of people credit Chris Moneymaker for single-handedly setting off the poker boom. The term Moneymaker Effect rose from this belief. But I'm not entirely sure that's what happened, rather it was a team effort. Moneymaker was one third of a perfect storm, along with an existing boom in online poker and the advent of the hole-card camera (which propelled televised poker).
If one player winning the Main could create a boom on his own, we would have seen larger upticks after wins by Hal Fowler (first amateur to win) and Tom McEvoy (another former accountant who was relatively new to the poker scene). But we didn't.
On the other hand, we did see a fairly sizable jump from 2002 to 2003 after the win by Varkonyi (another amateur). It was a 33 percent increase from 608 to 839, certainly nothing compared to the three-fold increase from 2003 to 2004, but enough to support the notion that the other non-player factors were moving into place. That was the highest percentage jump from one year's Main to the next since 1981 to 1982.
In the end, if the Poker HOF enshrines Moneymaker mostly for his contribution to the boom***, and honors Henry Orenstein primarily for his invention of the hole-card camera, then it stands to reason that the third component to the poker boom – namely, online poker – should also earn recognition. And the most central figure to online poker's part of the boom is Scheinberg.
***It's important to reiterate here that I'm not saying Moneymaker was irrelevant. He was absolutely a key ingredient to the boom, like one third of the Fire Triangle. (I know, I know, most people know that goes without saying. But this is NVG. Add even an asterisk next to a name and suddenly you're a hater. Speak one mitigating word in favor of someone and suddenly, well, you must be that person.)
Yea, I don't want to rehash old discussions too much, but the "Moneymaker Effect" was really the synergy of several phenomena: widespread online poker + hole card cams + vast improvements to TV poker productions + the Moneymaker story on its town. Party Poker and PokerStars were popping. ESPN's televised poker content took a quantum leap in entertainment value. The WPT was popping. Moneymaker winning was a great story, and ESPN was repeating those episodes constantly.
Really it was the perfect storm and there were numerous entities involved (ESPN, 442 Productions, Mike Sexton, Isai Scheinberg, Lon and Norm, Moneymaker).
I reckon most of those individuals will find their way into the poker HoF eventually if they aren't already there.
