Player misreads hand in $40K pot on live-stream - Poker News

Two Plus Two Forums Poker News & Discussion News, Views, and Gossip

Player misreads hand in $40K pot on live-stream

Post Reply Subscribe

...

Page 1 of 4

1 2 3 4

Page 1 of 4

1 2 3 4

08-26-2023 , 02:59 PM

davomalvolio

old hand

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 1,742

Link

On the HCL stream, a guy check-calls three streets (including a $14K River shove) with 64o on a T955J board, cheering when he sees his opponents pocket Queens, only to look down in hoodie at his tabled hand to see he doesn’t have a 5.

If this happened to me at my $1-$2 game, I would absolutely give the guy his River bet back. I’d consider it pretty scummy behavior to keep it. Im a little surprised there was no discussion of it here. Am I a sucker, or what?

Quote

08-26-2023 , 04:27 PM

Loctus

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 11,161

I think the moral thing is to give him about 90% of the river bet back, to hedge against the few combo times that his call is correct.

Actually best argument I've seen for not returning bet is that by doing that you take the pain away from him and he won't learn the lesson really. Buuuutttt his mistake cost him money on flop and turn too really, so even returning the river bet there'd still be pain.

And twitter has had a bunch of discussion on this hand. Vast majority is for not giving back. But for the first time in my life I find myself agreeing with Mike Matusow, who thinks it should be returned

Quote

08-26-2023 , 04:52 PM

Joe-exotic69

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 1,302

Lol @ giving the money back

Unless V is my mom or my wife i ain’t giving ***** back, your fault for misreading your cards.

I guess if the hand was vs Nitucci there’d be an argument to give the money back but Dr.H is a pure rec, i think giving the money back was the last thing on his mind lol

Quote

08-26-2023 , 04:58 PM

Masq

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 15,008

Do people really only look at their cards once during the hand and then not bother to check it? Seems like the onus is really on each player to know their hand.

If the shoe is on the other foot, does San Man return the money? Maybe he does, but it does open up the window for angleshooting / freerolling if you know such arrangement exists.

Quote

08-26-2023 , 06:11 PM

dude45

veteran

Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 2,811

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe-exotic69

Agreed

Quote

08-26-2023 , 08:53 PM

monikrazy

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 28,056

Eh.. i certainly think there are players out there who might return a portion of the money (and good on them) but its not scummy to keep it.

Last edited by monikrazy; 08-26-2023 at 09:05 PM.

Quote

08-26-2023 , 11:49 PM

OmahaDonk

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 4,934

I might return it to a good friend but to imply it’s scummy not to is pretty silly.

I had a reg stuff it in Vs my top set with a gutter cause he thought we were still on the big O round. We ran it twice and I held. Should I give him a prorated rebate based on our equities? Never crossed my mind.

Quote

08-27-2023 , 12:42 AM

borg23

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 15,054

it's shitty situation. i can see arguments for giving the river bet back. by the same token what if he thinks he has trip and check raises the turn or open rips the river and Dr. H folds the QQ (or has a worse hand and folds) all because he misread his hand? Is he then gonna say sorry I thought I had trip and give it back?

Quote

08-27-2023 , 07:01 AM

PokerEthics

adept

Join Date: Feb 2022 Posts: 1,042

A lot of people saying give it back.

I would bet a lot of money that more than half the people saying give it back would not if it was their money.

Poker players and people in general are very generous w other people’s money.

Where do you draw the line for rebates? 8 high call here or 9 high call?

We know half the forum considers J hi to be a call and GTO.

Quote

08-27-2023 , 07:25 AM

#10

Kalaea

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2021 Posts: 493

I've stuffed it in several times at PLO with the nut low thinking it was a hilo table, and never once expected a rebate after the pot goes across the virtual felt. Nor have I ever considered giving a pot to someone who folded to my unintended bluff. If you misread your hand it's on you and nobody else. Lol at anyone saying they should get the river bet back.

Last edited by Kalaea; 08-27-2023 at 07:26 AM. Reason: playing PLO and PLO/8 at the same time is prob -ev lol

Quote

08-27-2023 , 08:24 AM

#11

wazz

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 14,755

The stream complicates things massively. Without the stream, the politics is simple: in a casino game, where you don't know the guy, you don't give a penny back, because however much you might think it'll never happen to you, it might happen to you. In any other game, whether it's a home game or private, you should give the money back, because it's the right thing to do, it's a nice thing to do, and your winrate is not predicated on 'some of the time people will be idiots and not double check that they have the hand they think they have'.

Quote

08-27-2023 , 08:34 AM

#12

LimpDitka

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 4,024

I would have given the money back because it was on live stream. Especially if you want to get invited to private home games.

Quote

08-27-2023 , 09:58 AM

#13

ligastar

ToP 100 pAsS cAtChErS

Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 30,987

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe-exotic69

Lol @ giving the money back

Quote

08-27-2023 , 10:14 AM

#14

Loctus

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 11,161

Quote:

Originally Posted by PokerEthics

What about 23o then, since we're making hypotheticals?

Quote

08-27-2023 , 10:20 AM

#15

PokerEthics

adept

Join Date: Feb 2022 Posts: 1,042

Quote:

Originally Posted by LimpDitka

I would have given the money back because it was on live stream. Especially if you want to get invited to private home games.

That’s an ok counter point but there’s no guarantee you’re invited back. They might even invite you back bc you were part of a “situation”.

The guy that mucked is definitely getting invited back!

At most private games if they’re taking rake its a myth players get banned/not invited back.

Quote

08-27-2023 , 10:26 AM

#16

PokerEthics

adept

Join Date: Feb 2022 Posts: 1,042

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loctus

What about 23o then, since we're making hypotheticals?

I want to try this at the casino next time I have 3 hi on the river… call a river bet and then show 3 hi and demand it back.

Just to prove none of you guys are ever giving this bet back.

What about players who just call to see what you have?

This is a slippery slope.

Quote

08-27-2023 , 11:01 AM

#17

mesmerized

help me decide

Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 946

i think the river snap call would make me consider giving him some/most of it back , maybe turn and river bets back.

Any other time i think its up to the player to know their hand,

Lets say hyperthetically the turn and river go 6 6 or 4 4 and he wins thinking he has a 5 or whatever cards, does he give u it back ? i doubt it.

But just cos of the insta snapp call id think the LOL then give it back.

Quote

08-27-2023 , 11:17 AM

#18

plaaynde

Poker Historian

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 20,071

Problem is donating a sum to a particular player in the middle of a game.

Quote

08-27-2023 , 11:19 AM

#19

wazz

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 14,755

Quote:

Originally Posted by PokerEthics

This is a slippery slope.

Yes, and much like many slippery slopes, the presence of a human, in the form of us, with agency and decision-making powers and the awareness of nuance and the long term can prevent that slippery slope of indecision into a steep cliff of danger. Where does it stop being a slippery slope and 'easy moral decision'. When a beggar is asking you for money for food? Do we only give money when we're forced to, when it's the moral thing to do, when it's only in our best interests? Are these all slippery slopes that we have no place occupying space on at any point?

Quote

08-27-2023 , 11:47 AM

#20

Kebabkungen

adept

Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 1,074

Quote:

Originally Posted by davomalvolio

If he cheered thinking I lost my money I would not give him anything back.

Quote

08-27-2023 , 03:01 PM

#21

newguyhere

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 7,188

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

lol

Quote

08-27-2023 , 03:07 PM

#22

Joe-exotic69

old hand

Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 1,302

Quote:

Originally Posted by mesmerized

So if he tank called with the nut low dont give money back.

If he snap calls with nut low, give money back.. got it thanks

Quote

08-27-2023 , 03:28 PM

#23

plaaynde

Poker Historian

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 20,071

Don't want to be a smartass but 64o means 5 on average. Freudian slip can be even quad 5? Probably not but easily trup!

Last edited by plaaynde; 08-27-2023 at 03:38 PM.

Quote

08-27-2023 , 03:38 PM

#24

Vanhaomena

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 2,048

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masq

I've heard the argument that checking your cards is some kind of a tell. And I've never heard where the potential for a tell is if I check my cards every hand, even when I remember perfectly what I had.