Phil Ivey wins 7.3m GBP in London, casino refuses to pay. Ivey sues. Loses Case. Appeals. Loses - Page 49 - Poker News

Sounds like the casino caught what was going on after the first night with all these weird demands etc and decided "Hey lets see what happens, if we are wrong he will lose it back, if he keeps on winning we claim cheating."

Nice little freeroll ..

This actually makes a lot of sense

Sent from my SPH-L900 using 2+2 Forums

05-13-2013 , 06:25 PM

#1202

franxic

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,059

Quote:

Originally Posted by hfrog355

The answer to your questions are simple - don't let him alter the game. All of the things you have listed are requests by him which the casino granted. If I asked you to turn over one of your cards in the middle of a poker game and then repeatedly stacked you when you agreed, would that constitute cheating?

You seem incapable of discussing something which doesn't involve you at all without resorting to name calling and other unpleasantries‎. Not sure why you're getting your jimmies all rustled, but welcome to my ignore list.

but that is not what happened. if you have to find (completely unrelated) examples to prove your point you are likely wrong.

if i decepted you into giving me an illegal edge using a lie, would that constitute cheating?

Last edited by franxic; 05-13-2013 at 06:27 PM. Reason: oh you ignore me, that's fine, didn't expect a good response anyway

05-13-2013 , 06:29 PM

#1203

DefendTheCult

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,934

Quote:

Originally Posted by franxic

Were the rules of the game broken by Ivey himself?

05-13-2013 , 06:30 PM

#1204

Cuban B

old hand

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 1,765

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesD816

I would be shocked if they don't have the cards. Ivey booked that huge win after asking to keep the same cards overnight for the next session. If they didn't keep the cards that would be one important point for Ivey.

This is another odd thing they agreed to. When people go on heaters in lower stakes craps they still often check the dice, ect. I find it hard to believe they would accept a carry over of the same cards for a whale without having a casino expert go over them in detail, which increases the chance that they did notice a potential issue with the cards but decided to still go for the freeroll.

05-13-2013 , 06:33 PM

#1205

hfrog355

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 6,404

How much trust are we putting in them producing the same deck of cards for analysis during any legal proceedings? Seems like a situation ripe for conspiracy/dishonesty.

05-13-2013 , 06:36 PM

#1206

franxic

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,059

Quote:

Originally Posted by DefendTheCult

Were the rules of the game broken by Ivey himself?

is card reading within the rules?

05-13-2013 , 06:39 PM

#1207

Westley

veteran

Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 2,465

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tall_Cool

This was going to be my response as well. I probably shouldn't have used poker in my analogy. It doesn't really belong with games against the house.

Fair enough.. don't worry, not looking to get into the usual troll-retroll loop (sure you aren't either!)

I was more interested in where the line between an edge and an unfair advantage would be for you..?

I would imagine it would depend for most on whether the 'edge' was against the house or against other gamblers...?

05-13-2013 , 06:41 PM

#1208

golfnutt

banned

Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 5,969

What special knowledge did this 'oriental' lady bring to the game? Why couldn't she just have shared it with Ivey so there wouldn't be this big suspicion of him bringing in a banned player?

Casino trying to free-roll makes a bit of a sense. But they also need to factor this against the bad publicity of this debacle.

05-13-2013 , 06:49 PM

#1209

Richas

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,440

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitch-22

Again, you don't know this. Stop presenting conjecture as fact.

You're entitled to your own opinion, you're not entitled to your own facts.

again, the account in the public domain, keeping cards for another day, dealing 4 cards face down in contravention of the published rules show that the allegation is as I suggest - casino rules broken by staff, the same staff getting tips.

It is not me making stuff up, These are allegations, I never saw it but the only public account includes staff not applying the standard rules of the casino.

05-13-2013 , 06:52 PM

#1210

Richas

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,440

Quote:

Originally Posted by andyg2001

Any action a Casino takes happens because of what the Casino staff do, so your post is LOL.

10-1 you not an employer.

05-13-2013 , 06:58 PM

#1211

Richas

veteran

Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 3,440

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfnutt

bloody good eyesight, the whole scam, take your pick.

You seem to have the sexist idea that Ivey was running this and the lady was a distraction. He was the whale fronting the scam not the mastermind.

he is likely suing because he was dim enough to pay the girl before he got the cash from the casino.

Cliffs
Girls is up X million
Casino has lost nowt
Ivey is down X million.

Lawyers +EV

05-13-2013 , 07:06 PM

#1212

hfrog355

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 6,404

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richas

he is likely suing because he was dim enough to pay the girl before he got the cash from the casino.

Cliffs
Girls is up X million
Casino has lost nowt
Ivey is down X million.

Lawyers +EV

Probably pretty good cliffs.

05-13-2013 , 07:12 PM

#1213

franxic

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,059

Quote:

Originally Posted by hfrog355

Probably pretty good cliffs.

absolutely

05-13-2013 , 07:12 PM

#1214

DefendTheCult

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,934

Quote:

Originally Posted by franxic

is card reading within the rules?

Well that isn't answering the question that I asked. Why answer a question with a question?

However, I'll answer your question with an answer and not another question. Card Counting in the US, is not illegal and is not considered cheating.

05-13-2013 , 07:13 PM

#1215

Cigano

banned

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 161

There's this one Asian chick who can spot manufacturing defects in playing cards that are unnoticeable to virtually everyone else. She can do this well enough so it's like they are dealing the cards face up.

The casinos only seem to notice when they owe over 7 figures plus.
Ivey friend is not just watching the action, she's actually telling them how to deal to satisfy Phil's superstitions.
Weird game
Weird casino
Weird location
Weird stakes
Weird defects
Weird player history
Weird dealing requests
Weird security and staff decisions
Weird heater

This is a weird story.

05-13-2013 , 07:15 PM

#1216

franxic

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,059

Quote:

Originally Posted by DefendTheCult

i asked if card reading is within the rules, implying that the answer to your question is yes.

05-13-2013 , 07:20 PM

#1217

DefendTheCult

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,934

Quote:

Originally Posted by franxic

i asked if card reading is within the rules, implying that the answer to your question is yes.

ha! Alright, how did Ivey break the rules himself? Again, this is all because of the casino staff. If you don't recognize that a player has found a marked deck, you don't need to be involved in operations of a casino. Also, discovering a marked deck is not cheating, or even asking for a specific request is not cheating. If I MARK a deck, I would consider that cheating.

05-13-2013 , 07:30 PM

#1218

franxic

veteran

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 2,059

^^by card-reading?

the staff/casino was tricked into making card-reading possible. does that justify cheating? i agree they ****ed up big, but it's just a textbook example of cheating.

cheats rely on bad judgement by the victims.

05-13-2013 , 07:43 PM

#1219

jcorb

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,105

Quote:

Originally Posted by DefendTheCult

this

"...textbook example of cheating..."

you sir, are FOS

05-13-2013 , 07:59 PM

#1220

DefendTheCult

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,934

Quote:

Originally Posted by franxic

US Law actually disagrees with you regarding Card Counting, as it is not illegal and is not cheating. However, a casino does have the right to deny service to anyone, therefor if discovered, you can be removed. You are being removed NOT because you are cheating. Again, Ivey, even if card counting, was not cheating.

05-13-2013 , 08:14 PM

#1221

spewie_griffin

banned

Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 300

Funny post on a casino game protection consultants blog re edge sorting...

Prateek | December 1, 2012 at 8:44 PM | Reply

Aren’t you cannibalizing your consulting firm’s profits giving this away for free on your blog? Or is it that there aren’t any casinos out there anymore that are stupid enough to give away a vulnerability like this?

http://apheat.net/2012/11/30/video-w...-edge-sorting/

05-13-2013 , 08:37 PM

#1222

rivercitybirdie

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 4,726

i think a new thread would be a good idea as this is the #1 story on yahoo right now.... no way of knowing that by looking at the thread headline as it is at this moment

05-13-2013 , 08:50 PM

#1223

Videopro

Making TV

Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 19,335

I was chatting with a friend in Argentina and he brought it up stating it was a hot story down there.

05-13-2013 , 08:56 PM

#1224

Bictor Vlom

grinder

Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 669

Whether Ivey cheated or simply took advantage of a situation that presented itself, is not the legal issue that the Casino will argue to deny payment. They will simply focus on the fact that the cards were "defective". In the same manner that Casinos deny slot jackpots due to machines that malfunctioned. There is significant precedence for casino to deny jackpots on machines that were deemed to have bad computer chips.

My feeling is that Ivey nor the Casino want any more bad press and will come to a suitable arrangement (credit and markers at some % of the winnings), if they haven't already. The Casino knows that he is a losing degen anyway. If they keep him in the pit games long enough, he'll spew off his "winnings" and a lot more.

http://www.bjrnet.com/member/gatl/index.cgi?read=4

Last edited by Bictor Vlom; 05-13-2013 at 09:01 PM.

05-13-2013 , 09:01 PM

#1225

donniccolo

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 6,141

Quote:

Originally Posted by D1G1TALFOX

Phil Ivey won £7.8m by 'reading' the back of cards: How tiny flaw in deck design could have given poker star the upper hand

Phil Ivey is accused of 'reading' the cards in a game based purely on luck
Mr Ivey’s winnings were withheld by Mayfair casino Crockfords
He insists he did nothing illegal in a game of punto banco

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ing-cards.html

Cliff Notes:

-Ivey visits Crockfords with Asian female companion to play high stakes Punto Banco
-Lady asks dealer to rotate cards 180 degrees when they are dealt because Phil is superstitious and thinks it is luckier.
-Ivey and his companion never touch the cards.
-At one point during the first night, he is down 500,000 quid
-Ivey increases bets from 50,000 to 150,000 quid per hand
-That night he recovers and wins 2.3M quid
-Ivey asks the casino to preserve the cards from this session (considering them lucky, I suppose) and they agree
-Ivey and companion return the next day and win 5.5M more
-Casino claims cards were marked due to manufacturing error
-Ivey could recognize this by having the cards turned 180 degrees, hence why he wanted the cards preserved for the next day (when they are usually destroyed after each session)
-Casino claims Ivey's companion helped him "read" the cards (she has been banned from a couple casinos in the US)
-Thus, Ivey's winnings are not legitimate

End Cliff Notes.

You forgot to add that the entire process, from start to finish, was being overseen by numerous casino employees and floor men/women.

Quote:

Originally Posted by skillz_2106

Whether Ivey was aware of the flawed cards and able to use it to his advantage or not, it doesn't seem as though he's broken any rules in regards to his rights as a gambler. If the casino isn't checking their cards vigorously enough to prevent this type of thing happening, the onus is on them, not the player. They let Ivey and the Chinese woman play and dictate the terms on which they played - it's casino managements own fault for not sticking to procedure. Pay up.

Has anyone mentioned this little bit- If I'm Mr. Casino Manager, 5 seconds after Ivey books a $2m win on night one and leaves, I'm changing out the MFing cards and inspecting the ones that were used; not for nothing, but Ivey would have no effing way of knowing if you changed the cards, no? Even if he knew they were marked he can't actually call you out on changing them...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcorb

Ivey's Attorney: So Mr. Casino Manager we see here in your training documents that the dealers are required to spread the deck and inspect it for abnormalities, is that correct?

Casino Manager: Yes that is correct.

IA: and did the surveillance tapes verify this was done?

CM: Yes

IA: and was there a supervisor present to oversee the dealers actions?

CM: Yes

IA: And was security on duty and all cameras functional?

CM: Yes

IA: Your honor, I move that they PAY THE MAN HIS MONEY!!

Pretty much think this is how it will go if it reaches trial.

Judge: Did you use your own rules?

Casino: Yes

Judge: Did you have numerous high level employees overseeing the game?

Casino: Yes

Judge: Did the Defendant play by the rules you set?

Casino: Yes

Judge: Did the Defendant use the cards that you provided?

Casino: Yes

zzz...

Can a MOD add a POLL to this maf? Here are some choices:

1- Ivey innocent, pay him everything + interest

2- Ivey probably cheated, but casino should still pay

3- Ivey likely cheated, casino should not pay

4- Ivey is a cheater, sue his b-ass

Page 49 of 136

First

29 39 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 59 69 99

Last

Closed Thread Subscribe

...

Page 49 of 136

First

29 39 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 59 69 99

Last