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Old 07-12-2018, 03:18 PM   #26
Kelvis
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

I love PH because you can tell so much about poker players based on what they think about him.

If they think he's the best ever you know they're results oriented donkatrons that don't understand winnings != profit.
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:25 PM   #27
freedom 35
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

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Originally Posted by leolauzon View Post
What he did to the fireman? You mean buying him back in next year tournament? Having the fireman praise him? Getting someone with a worst hand to call all-in? The guy calling had a worst flush draw. It's result oriented to say that he "did something to the fireman", if anything he did something to the other guy who happened to get lucky. And we don't even know if he would have folded. He had 10 times more chips than the fireman.
Lol its results orientated to say he got someone to call with the worst hand and the guy had the worst flush draw. Its also completely irrelevant and just contradicts your point.

Agree it was a nice gesture to buy him in next year and hopefully he learns some basic etiquette.
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:41 PM   #28
Wildspoke
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

PH is one of my least favorite players. I absolutely hate how he treats players at the table. I guess that's why all the high stakes players treat him so poorly. Turnabout is fair play, I guess.

But

"You are what your record says you are"
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Old 07-12-2018, 03:47 PM   #29
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

This thread is littered with cheeto dust and dried up old sweat. **** you cringy neckbeard netkids. Phil Hellmuth is the absolute G.O.A.T. of live tournament poker, the only poker that really matters, and will ever matter. Eat ****.
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Old 07-12-2018, 04:16 PM   #30
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

He is a Beast!

You ain't **** if you keep winning bracelets!

Haters gonna hate!
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Old 07-12-2018, 04:17 PM   #31
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

Been around 20+ years, hof for that alone. Good for him, its a turbo lol. Yea there was smaller fields back in the day, but like others said less events too. And who cares if hes playing $25k thin fields of 400, and $1500 Razzz fields with 1000 runners, someones gotta win. Only reason im being nice is because he was a bit gracious in victory, glad to see he is maturing finally.
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Old 07-12-2018, 04:53 PM   #32
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

nothing succeeds like success. He's not working a real job out there sweating his ass off like the rest of us.

He could clean up his demeanor. Comes off like an entitled panty waist milky toast, which he is. Sam Grizzle kicked his ass so there's that.
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Old 07-12-2018, 04:59 PM   #33
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

15 bracelets = poor player

8 tabling 5c/10c making 1.3bb/100 = pro player

NVG
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:33 PM   #34
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

White magic baby!
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:44 PM   #35
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

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Markup goes to 2.0 next year
this
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:43 PM   #36
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

It's love hate for me. Great play fantastic success. Poor behavior and terrible self awareness / self control.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:04 PM   #37
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

honey honey I just won my 15th
weres the coverage for this tourney?
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:24 PM   #38
News777
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

In the game of life Phil Hellmuth is the rake.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:25 PM   #39
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

Bet he can’t even beat 100NL Zumba!
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:59 PM   #40
kiddo1987
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

Can’t argue results. PH is very impressive from that standpoint. His antics and personality take away from his accomplishments. If he handled himself like the other Phil, he’d likely receive more credit.

The WSOP article/interview with him where he talks about how he is giving the bracelet to Elon Musks best friend, the “GOAT angel investor” is incredibly cheesy and cringe.
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Old 07-12-2018, 09:41 PM   #41
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

As a few have commented, the number of cashes is not a big deal unless you know the number of buy-ins, and I don't think that info is tracked,

However, info that is tracked includes how he does once he has passed the bubble. His record of making heads-up once he has made cash is vastly better than can be explained by anything but extraordinary skills. I won't bore by repeating some analysis of this that I have posted more than once already, but a quick scan by anyone with a mathematical brain will show what I mean.

I strongly dislike the man, but those results are there to be seen.
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Old 07-13-2018, 01:53 AM   #42
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

15 bracelets
and last night they mentioned he has TEN runner-up finishes.
But he sucks?

Then what do we say about the EVERYONE ELSE who has less than those?

To deny his ability as the GOAT at tourney holdem is absurd.

How does he have the most 1st's and 2nd's and yet is a bad player?
It defies all logic.

You make yourself look incredibly stupid to chalk this up to luck.
He must be the luckiest person in the world.
Or just the best.

25 1sts or 2nds
Purely luck.
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Old 07-13-2018, 04:18 AM   #43
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

The best

GOAT

Lmao.

You gotta lol at people giving so much credit to ****ing MTT players.
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Old 07-13-2018, 04:22 AM   #44
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

A more interesting discussion rather than all the trollish "OMG he sucks" vs. "OMG GOAT" is to try to figure out why, that despite very obvious shortcomings in his playstyle, he still manages to have such a high level of success in hold em tournaments.

There are a whole host of tournament specific skills and considerations and I'm just assuming Hellmuth is exceptionally good at at least a few of them.

His results speak for themselves, he's clearly an exceptionally good holdem tournament player. Its likely that what he's good at is more subtle and situational which is why it's so maddening to try to figure out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoseMourinho View Post
The best

GOAT

Lmao.

You gotta lol at people giving so much credit to ****ing MTT players.
You'll find virtually all praise of him with the "live holdem tournament" caveat attached. I don't think anyone on the planet believes Hellmuth is the all around best poker player period.
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Old 07-13-2018, 06:00 AM   #45
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

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Originally Posted by minecraft View Post
15 bracelets = poor player

8 tabling 5c/10c making 1.3bb/100 = pro player

NVG
Pretty accurate 2nd post bro. cheers
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Old 07-13-2018, 09:59 AM   #46
robert_utk
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Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

His style of play is focused on staying alive and sacrificing lots of EV to do so. His goal is bracelets, not money. IDK why this is so polarizing among small stakes poker players that have zero bracelets. He will get to 20 bracelets and no one will ever catch him at that number. He gets to respond to every criticism forever by saying “I am Hellmuth and I have X bracelets.
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:23 AM   #47
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

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Originally Posted by robert_utk View Post
His style of play is focused on staying alive and sacrificing lots of EV to do so. His goal is bracelets, not money. IDK why this is so polarizing among small stakes poker players that have zero bracelets. He will get to 20 bracelets and no one will ever catch him at that number. He gets to respond to every criticism forever by saying “I am Hellmuth and I have X bracelets.
I think he’s a brilliant player. Moreover, he may not be on Ivey’s level at high stakes cash, but he’d own 99% of 2+2ers at the stakes we play. He plays tag and reads hands very well.
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:32 AM   #48
-UBetIFold-
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

Let's see if he's even around in 5 years
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:07 PM   #49
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cotton Hill View Post
A more interesting discussion rather than all the trollish "OMG he sucks" vs. "OMG GOAT" is to try to figure out why, that despite very obvious shortcomings in his playstyle, he still manages to have such a high level of success in hold em tournaments.

There are a whole host of tournament specific skills and considerations and I'm just assuming Hellmuth is exceptionally good at at least a few of them.

His results speak for themselves, he's clearly an exceptionally good holdem tournament player. Its likely that what he's good at is more subtle and situational which is why it's so maddening to try to figure out.



You'll find virtually all praise of him with the "live holdem tournament" caveat attached. I don't think anyone on the planet believes Hellmuth is the all around best poker player period.
Hellmuth believes it.
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Old 07-13-2018, 12:45 PM   #50
Registered 2018
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Re: Phil Hellmuth wins his 15th WSOP gold bracelet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cotton Hill View Post
A more interesting discussion rather than all the trollish "OMG he sucks" vs. "OMG GOAT" is to try to figure out why, that despite very obvious shortcomings in his playstyle, he still manages to have such a high level of success in hold em tournaments.

There are a whole host of tournament specific skills and considerations and I'm just assuming Hellmuth is exceptionally good at at least a few of them.

His results speak for themselves, he's clearly an exceptionally good holdem tournament player. Its likely that what he's good at is more subtle and situational which is why it's so maddening to try to figure out.



You'll find virtually all praise of him with the "live holdem tournament" caveat attached. I don't think anyone on the planet believes Hellmuth is the all around best poker player period.
The problem with excellent people in their fields (like Hellmuth) is that many of the stuff that make them great are unconscious. In fact, what they say they believe is the right way or the wrong way are at conscious level and would therefore have nothing to do with what really matters, which is unconscious - call it "instincts' or "intuitions" if you will.

There are, however, things that are clear with regards to Hellmuth and that is he does not seem to give value to EV when it comes to making decisions. He's all about survival (forgoing the current plus EV of the current decision) and then using his exceptional people reading skills (more than just hand reading skills) and ability to influence and manipulate weaker players later on. In a way, by not putting high value to EV during a tournament, he has aligned himself with the fact that EV decisions inside tournament don't have long term effects because once the tourney is over or once one busts out, the EV decisions made inside the tournament won't add up to a long term sample size.

The "obvious shortcomings to his playstyle" are from the point of view of people who value optimization. But Hellmuth is not based on optimization. He is based on exploitation and manipulation. He never uses words like "balance", "frequencies", "ranges", etc. He uses old school phrases like "put him on so and so...", or "I suspect he had so and so" or "I sensed weakness" or "I didn't believe him", etc. These are only "shortcomings" from the point of view of the optimizers.

When he uses the term "white magic" he means it. It's the people who dismiss it or even mock it that may be missing something, thanks to their conformity to optimization and to group think.
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