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Old 09-02-2016, 09:05 AM   #276
Giroudgeous
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

lol at chat abuse being a negative for table caps
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:07 AM   #277
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by Giroudgeous View Post
lol at chat abuse being a negative for table caps
Recs looking to try out poker typically don't like being told that their mother who passed away last year should die in a grease fire...

It's just common sense. Sorry, but I don't think players cussing each other out at the tables and slowing down the game is good for online poker.
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:08 AM   #278
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

i don't recall saying they would enjoy it - i doubt you'll find many examples of recs actually leaving a site because of chat abuse tho

(it's just common sense)
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:09 AM   #279
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Anonymous tables are stupid and will just make rec players leaver quicker than they already would.
Which is why Bovada - a site with only anonymous tables - is the fishiest site on the internet.

If you're going to make grand assertions, you need to back it up with evidence. Where is your evidence that recs leave quicker when tables are anonymous?
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:16 AM   #280
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by INyaDOME View Post
Recs looking to try out poker typically don't like being told that their mother who passed away last year should die in a grease fire...

It's just common sense. Sorry, but I don't think players cussing each other out at the tables and slowing down the game is good for online poker.
Most chat abuse will occur when players are not in the hand, so there is negligible effect on game speed. Chat abuse is quite a rare occurrence anyway. I barely come across it, even from 1 tabling recs.

Regs who play 20 tables slow the game down far, far more. And it's not even close.
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:30 AM   #281
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Which is why Bovada - a site with only anonymous tables - is the fishiest site on the internet.

If you're going to make grand assertions, you need to back it up with evidence. Where is your evidence that recs leave quicker when tables are anonymous?
Bovada is the fisheist site on the net because of all the Asian sportsbetters who are new to the game. Take away the anon aspect and nothing changes.

It's the player pool causing that...not the anon tables. From what I can see the "anon Myth" is strong. Just listen to what you're saying..."Bovada is the easiest site to win money playing poker on."

Does that statement not totally contradict the claim that anonymity helps recs by preventing them from losing as easily when regs are saying that an anon site is the easiest site to win on?
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:37 AM   #282
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

Not saying you're incorrect but it could just as easily be down to the rec:reg ratio.
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:41 AM   #283
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Not saying you're incorrect but it could just as easily be down to the rec:reg ratio.
I personally don't care if anonymity becomes the standard in the industry. As I believe it changes absolutely nothing.

The only thing Bovada did to successfully decrease win rates of regs was to add non-synced breaks on their MTTs. That aspect has far more of a negative impact on MTT regs than anon tables.
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:42 AM   #284
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by INyaDOME View Post
It's the player pool causing that...not the anon tables. From what I can see the "anon Myth" is strong. Just listen to what you're saying..."Bovada is the easiest site to win money playing poker on."

Does that statement not totally contradict the claim that anonymity helps recs by preventing them from losing as easily when regs are saying that an anon site is the easiest site to win on?
it does not contradict it if
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It's the player pool causing that...not the anon tables.
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:44 AM   #285
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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I personally don't care if anonymity becomes the standard in the industry. As I believe it changes absolutely nothing.

The only thing Bovada did to successfully decrease win rates of regs was to add non-synced breaks on their MTTs. That aspect has far more of a negative impact on MTT regs than anon tables.
You don't actually know that though. You could very well be right but you are still just speculating.

It's also about positive impact for recs, not negative impact for regs - they're not the same thing.
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:45 AM   #286
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

I don't think that poker is anywhere close to dying. Pokerstars still has 120,000 players playing online every night at peak hours.

I bet this number would be 400,000 (maybe more) if people were actually winning and not not quitting after breaking even over 100,000 hands due to rake.
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:46 AM   #287
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

Um, yes it does.
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:51 AM   #288
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

I also don't like anonomys tables. It's not fair if a guy can exploititivly 3 bet you with 25% of his range on the button and you don't know if it's some nit that's doing it or a guy going for a max exploit strategy.

Poker is an opponent based game. Without being able to make reads on players you might as well as call it something else like "Pushing Equity"
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:51 AM   #289
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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You don't actually know that though. You could very well be right but you are still just speculating.

It's also about positive impact for recs, not negative impact for regs - they're not the same thing.
Actually, I do know that...

Because, the win rates of players on Pokerstars are the same when they make the transition to Bovada. Players have posted graphs demonstrating this in the Bovada thread. Yet, the Anon Myth lives on.

I've challenged anon Myth supporters to post data that supports their claim and the only data posted proves that win rates of winning players stay the same with anonymity...
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:52 AM   #290
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by Maximus122 View Post
Pokerstars still has 120,000 players playing online every night at peak hours.
Pokerstars has a weird way of counting players. A player multitabling on 6 tables counts as 6 players, so the real amount of players is actually only a fraction of the displayed playercount.
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:53 AM   #291
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

according to MPN network bad players loose faster at anonymus tables:

https://www.cardschat.com/news/bad-p...lose-more-8888
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:55 AM   #292
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Actually, I do know that...

Because, the win rates of players on Pokerstars are the same when they make the transition to Bovada. Players have posted graphs demonstrating this in the Bovada thread. Yet, the Anon Myth lives on.

I've challenged anon Myth supporters to post data that supports their claim and the only data posted proves that win rates of winning players stays the same with anonymity...
No, you don't.

Christ man, it can't be that ****ing hard. Are you incapable of imagining any other reason for this? Are you presuming the games on Bovada are exactly the same as Stars?
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Old 09-02-2016, 09:55 AM   #293
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

No it doesn't. Maybe the games are less beatable without anon tables, which is possible, though counterintuitive. More probable is that the games are more beatable without anon tables, since regs get more value out that information than recs. Maybe it has no effect at all. But you have no evidence either way. You're just guessing, and it's a bad guess.
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Old 09-02-2016, 10:00 AM   #294
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

I have no idea how much it would cost, so that could be a terrible idea, but I ask you guys anyway.

If poker sites don't earn much from rake on high stakes, why don't they make high stakes (and only high stakes) free of rake so regs could battle even with very small edges. Costly, yes, but marketing from that would be very good because of more hs action than anywhere else.
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Old 09-02-2016, 10:04 AM   #295
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by Maximus122 View Post
I don't think that poker is anywhere close to dying. Pokerstars still has 120,000 players playing online every night at peak hours.

I bet this number would be 400,000 (maybe more) if people were actually winning and not not quitting after breaking even over 100,000 hands due to rake.
The number would be >400k if you still had USA,Spain,Italy,France and lots of asian countries allowed to play on stars.com
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Old 09-02-2016, 10:04 AM   #296
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Fish are gonna be fish. They are going to lose their money. Figuring out how to best make them lose it slowly is tactic used by poker sites to try and dip their toes in a revenue stream they shouldn't be trying to make money off of - fish. The poker sites buy the fish for the sharks so that they can eat. Keeping the sharks fed keeps games running, therefore generating revenue for the sites. Now, like I said... players are too good now to just allow bumhunting to be rampant - that in particular needs to be addressed. But, I believe the poker community has been brainwashed by the industry into thinking good players who play alot are the problem. This has allowed them to slash rewards significantly, while really giving nothing back. Even the games at Bovada aren't great anymore (100 and 200nl reg) and I'd much rather play cash elsewhere.

they're a huge problem. it's not even debatable.
letting good players mass multi table (with more and more sophisticated software as time goes on) is a sure fire way to destroy the games.


"fish are gonna be fish" simply isn't true for most fish. they need to have fun while losing their money or they spend it somewhere else.why do you think casinos treat their losing customers so well?



it's also funny to say what a poker sites revenue stream should be. they're running a business-if someone else can make a living in the process it's a happy byproduct.


Now if galfond starts a site hopefully it will be a well run site with great software and fast payouts.But it's not gonna be some poker pro utopia.
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Old 09-02-2016, 10:04 AM   #297
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

I expect this site to have the same clientele as WPEX did before it closed, with or without the rake.
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Old 09-02-2016, 10:06 AM   #298
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
Pokerstars has a weird way of counting players. A player multitabling on 6 tables counts as 6 players, so the real amount of players is actually only a fraction of the displayed playercount.
Wow, I never knew this don't know about you guys.
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Old 09-02-2016, 10:14 AM   #299
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Phil wants to operate a room where people can dream of playing professionally.

Professionals need the use of HUDs and must be allowed to multi table.

There's no money in online poker otherwise.

For example, if you only play 4 tables of $.50/1 your getting 250 hands an hour. If you have have a winrate of 2 bb/100 you'd only be making $5 an hour, excluding rakeback.

HUDS are a part of poker and if a site offers multi tabling it should stay that way. It's not even difficult to learn how to use one.
if a site had a low table cap with lots of recreational players you would have to be a pretty ****ty pro to beat it for 2 bb/100 hands.


Even in your worst case scenario of 4 tabling for 2 bb/100 hands - that's probably closer to 12-15 bucks an hour with rakeback.
In what other business can one have a measly few thousand dollars to their name to "invest", sit on their ass playing a game all day, produce absolutely nothing of value whatsoever and make 15 bucks an hour which is more than a lot of people in this country make working.

You're right it's not difficult to learn to use one. So anywhere there is relatively easy money there will be an influx of people who make said money. So the smarter people who have a simple time learning to use a hud play more and more tables, fleece the suckers faster while tightening the games up in the process and the suckers the sites need to keep feeding this mass multitablers find something (almost anything at this point with how boring online poker has become) to do with their time and money.Which is exactly what's happened over the years in online poker.
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Old 09-02-2016, 10:20 AM   #300
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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No it doesn't. Maybe the games are less beatable without anon tables, which is possible, though counterintuitive. More probable is that the games are more beatable without anon tables, since regs get more value out that information than recs. Maybe it has no effect at all. But you have no evidence either way. You're just guessing, and it's a bad guess.
Are they getting more value? I would argue that a reg on 4 tables putting all his concentration on those 4 tables is more deadly than a reg spreading his focus across 20 tables with the help of a HUD. The data shows it's about the same.

I don't think I'm guessing when the documented win rates of players on Pokerstars is the same when those same players are on Bovada. I would say YOU and Bovada are guessing, though. Because, you're sure as hell not presenting any data to back up the claim that anonymity helps recs....that's for sure.

The site has been around for years now. Where are all the graphs showing that losing players are losing money less on Bovada? There should be thousands of examples proving this by now. Where are they? It'll be really interesting to see what happens on Bovada now that Ignition is separating the sports betters from the poker player pool.

I would almost bet that a reg playing 20 tables without a HUD would be less effective than a reg playing 4 tables without a HUD. For all you and Bovada know...you're helping the regs by capping them at 4 tables. The business model may be more effective by simply removing the HUDS and not capping the tables. It would almost be much more annoying for a reg who developed a 20 table strategy using HUDS to keep trying to play 20 tables without a HUD.

Last edited by INyaDOME; 09-02-2016 at 10:43 AM.
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