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Old 03-12-2018, 04:08 PM   #1826
upswinging
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by ToiletFlush View Post
I don't know how old you are, or what education you've received, so please don't get offended by this, but your post is extremely dumb.
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Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
Please be so kind to enlighten me as i don't know for a single country whose culture promotes and enourages cheating in all forms.

Ah yes. And the pc safe spacers come out to hate. I didn't name the countries for exactly this reason. It would derail the thread and make sensitive safe spacers like yourself feel uncomfortable/ shatter your outlook on the world. Maybe if you stepped out of your little safe space/ comfort zone and travelled or lived in different countries not as fortunate as yours for longer than a 2 week vacation you wouldn't refute what I'm saying.

I know you won't so just stop posting and pretending the little bubble you live in is reality for the rest of the world.

Have a nice day
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Old 03-12-2018, 04:31 PM   #1827
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by Alexdb View Post
I'm under the impression that seat-scripters, bot managers, mass multi-tablers, data-miners and HUD users all use desktops, but not all recs use desktops.

I realise some recs use desktops, I think it would net off well overall.
Some of the worst cheating and scamming I have ever heard of from poker clients arose on App-only gaming .... especially in OFC HU games.

I understand your impression, but think you are whistling past the graveyard.

Personally, I DO think App-only gaming is the future for much of the market, poker or otherwise, but definitely not for security reasons; things are just headed that way overall.
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Old 03-12-2018, 04:38 PM   #1828
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by upswinging View Post
Ah yes. And the pc safe spacers come out to hate. I didn't name the countries for exactly this reason. It would derail the thread and make sensitive safe spacers like yourself feel uncomfortable/ shatter your outlook on the world. Maybe if you stepped out of your little safe space/ comfort zone and travelled or lived in different countries not as fortunate as yours for longer than a 2 week vacation you wouldn't refute what I'm saying.

I know you won't so just stop posting and pretending the little bubble you live in is reality for the rest of the world.

Have a nice day
The reality is that you are a condescending, smarmy coward, afraid to come out and insult whole countries and probably 1/2 of a continent.

I've travelled and lived in several different countries and been involved in online gaming in many more; I don't know how provincial or ethno-centric your little-bubble worldview is.

I have 4 consonants and 1 vowel in my Eastern European last name; you think that says something negative ? Too bad if you are afraid to state what you actually are trying to say.
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Old 03-12-2018, 04:58 PM   #1829
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

One way to receive a mod infraction is to indiscriminately insult other countries in a vile manner (even if not naming the countries in the insult).

One way to receive a temp-ban is to double-down on the insult when others call you out on it and throw in gratuitous insults at them at the same time.
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Old 03-12-2018, 10:19 PM   #1830
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by destructor View Post
Not charging rake does not get you customers. There have been plenty of sites that have employed this strategy, but none of them have been successful without proper access to a consistent pool of net depositors. These players could care less about paying rake)
The outline I gave *does* charge rake and juice to recs (unless they are playing $5/$10 and above or $50 MTTs and above)

It doesn't charge rake to pros and grinders or for any HU games, so I believe pros and grinders would arrive first, thus allowing big MTT guarantees to be much more confidently given.... something which attracts recs (big prize pools for small or medium sized buy ins), along with the other rec benefits that I described.

One can have the best shop/store with the best goods in it but if no-one walks through the door and sees the goods it is all pointless.

The cost of RIO Poker setting up, and then the running of it for the first few months after it goes live must be pretty huge, so IMO they are better off going with something innovative and/or spectacular to gain an initial flood of customers than deploying a very standard marketing plan that is likely to be very capped in its results.

The big danger for them and indeed for any/many startups in poker or in any type of on line business is the creators looking too inwardly at their own product and business and believing that it is so great and so well conceived and built that it is guaranteed to succeed. The reality is often very different. You have to be very dynamic and aggressive to disrupt an existing and already very overcrowded market.

Last edited by SageDonkey; 03-12-2018 at 10:31 PM.
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Old 03-13-2018, 12:40 AM   #1831
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by David Lyons View Post
I work in poker, love poker, play poker, and read and write about poker constantly; but if I took a friend to my local casino who had never gambled before, I'd tell them they'd have a much better time at the roulette table with $100 than sitting at a $1/2 game with $100*.
The appeal of live poker over live roulette is that the former is more conducive to an interesting table talk.

As for online offerings, I don't know exactly what pleases a typical gambler, but I see that the house edges vary a lot, and I guess that they're correlated with the ability of a game to deliver pleasure (by the supply and demand mechanism), and that somehow Jacks or Better (with a 0.46% edge) is less pleasurable on avg than a slot (usually with a 3.4%+ edge). To some gamblers, an online poker game might be more pleasurable than a slot session with the same standard deviation, partly due to the bigger strategic element and control over outcomes.

To compare: when 2-tabling $15 Spin & Go Max (playing 16 games an hour), a weak player loses ~$40 an hour on avg, I guess (has a -17% expected ROI). A similar amount is lost on avg by placing 600 x $2 bets on a low-variance slot (3.5% edge) or 600 x $1 bets on a high-variance one (7% edge), which also takes around an hour. [Roulette (betting on 1-2 numbers) is much cheaper to play but possibly more boring.]

From the viewpoint of a gambling operator, though, it's still more profitable to persuade a customer to play a slot than SAG Max in my example (the customer's expected losses being equal) because the house keeps 100% of casino losses to itself, doesn't have to share 20-30% of the deposits with net withdrawing players like in poker.

Last edited by coon74; 03-13-2018 at 12:48 AM.
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Old 03-13-2018, 04:20 AM   #1832
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

I believe you can't have a global pool and fair games because to have any chance of enforcing rules you need jurisdiction to go after the cheaters. As long as people are able to play from a country which doesn't have functioning (or willing to cooperate) law enforcement the incentives to cheat are just too big.
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Old 03-13-2018, 05:11 AM   #1833
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by SageDonkey View Post
The outline I gave *does* charge rake and juice to recs (unless they are playing $5/$10 and above or $50 MTTs and above)

It doesn't charge rake to pros and grinders or for any HU games, so I believe pros and grinders would arrive first, thus allowing big MTT guarantees to be much more confidently given.... something which attracts recs (big prize pools for small or medium sized buy ins), along with the other rec benefits that I described.

One can have the best shop/store with the best goods in it but if no-one walks through the door and sees the goods it is all pointless.

The cost of RIO Poker setting up, and then the running of it for the first few months after it goes live must be pretty huge, so IMO they are better off going with something innovative and/or spectacular to gain an initial flood of customers than deploying a very standard marketing plan that is likely to be very capped in its results.

The big danger for them and indeed for any/many startups in poker or in any type of on line business is the creators looking too inwardly at their own product and business and believing that it is so great and so well conceived and built that it is guaranteed to succeed. The reality is often very different. You have to be very dynamic and aggressive to disrupt an existing and already very overcrowded market.
Charge rake and juice to recs, but make it free for pros. That should work out well. Because recs love high rake and they especially enjoy paying bumhunters to bumhunt them.

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Old 03-13-2018, 06:16 AM   #1834
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by punter11235 View Post
I believe you can't have a global pool and fair games because to have any chance of enforcing rules you need jurisdiction to go after the cheaters. As long as people are able to play from a country which doesn't have functioning (or willing to cooperate) law enforcement the incentives to cheat are just too big.
This is true and is much more sensible version of all the meh stuff about culture and countries full of cheaters versus countries full of gentlemen amateurs.

It should be pointed out that it would also exclude Nevada though as some of the biggest cheaters in online poker history have been based there, namely the UB owners/superusers who never saw the inside of a prison.
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Old 03-13-2018, 08:11 AM   #1835
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by FR-Nit View Post
Please be so kind to enlighten me as i don't know for a single country whose culture promotes and enourages cheating in all forms.
Ask the Olympic Athletes of Russia....
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Old 03-13-2018, 08:35 AM   #1836
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

The site will launch and will be a great success. Many recreational players will have fun in low-rake, non-predatory environment. Professionals will have options to make decent money. The site will bring some profit milking the customers without skinning them given that the site's goal will not be to make the owner super-rich, but rather to fulfill his dream and share it with everyone.

After few years there will a clear money grabbing potential. The brand can be monetized by increasing rake, getting rid of net winners and inventing more addictive, higher variance games. Phil will never allow it as long as he's a CEO but he will already have a feeling of fulfillment after few years, might be a little burned out and even though is not super greedy simply won't be able to refuse a $2B aquisition offer. Especially if the investors will promise to hold on to his values at first.

Long story short, after few years RIO Poker will share the fate of Pokerstars.
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Old 03-13-2018, 11:13 AM   #1837
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by SageDonkey View Post
The outline I gave *does* charge rake and juice to recs (unless they are playing $5/$10 and above or $50 MTTs and above)

It doesn't charge rake to pros and grinders or for any HU games, so I believe pros and grinders would arrive first, thus allowing big MTT guarantees to be much more confidently given.... ...

The big danger for them and indeed for any/many startups in poker or in any type of on line business is the creators looking too inwardly at their own product and business and believing that it is so great and so well conceived and built that it is guaranteed to succeed. The reality is often very different. You have to be very dynamic and aggressive to disrupt an existing and already very overcrowded market.
You flunk on all those points:

1. If it doesn't charge rake to cash games, how does that zero revenue launch model magically "allow big MTT guarantees to be more confidently given ?

2. The big danger for any/many startups is selecting an "already very overcrowded market" to enter. You miss the point of what "disruption" means; a market is defined/created apart from some "already very overcrowded" category of offerings. The great danger lies in taking half-baked advice from folks in online forums whose frame of reference is dedicated to some "already very overcrowded" business model. I think some strategy that begins by catering to the model feeding current business model pros or grinders is hardly disruptive of anything significant.

A business that could disrupt the current online poker business may instead be something else entirely than poker, if it better meets the needs and wants of folks who otherwise might have come to online poker .... It could be a better game or gambling channel, a better entertainment experience, or a better anything else that draws participation away from feeding poker pros and grinders.

Sorry, chumming the waters right from the start seems heading precisely toward failure ....
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Old 03-13-2018, 11:30 AM   #1838
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by punter11235 View Post
I believe you can't have a global pool and fair games because to have any chance of enforcing rules you need jurisdiction to go after the cheaters. As long as people are able to play from a country which doesn't have functioning (or willing to cooperate) law enforcement the incentives to cheat are just too big.
I disagree.

I've practiced gaming law for more than 25 years, with extensive P2P gaming industry involvement.

Enforcement/deterrence by economic or private means, and aggressive design to prevent violations, rather than resort to legal recourse to "go after cheaters", provide much more effective tools.

Not sure what country you think offers players a law enforcement climate and dedication of resources sufficient to deter cheating or fraud. Every market I can think of is still dependent upon player and operator action, not just bringing some criminal proceeding to bear on miscreants.

I think the benefits of a global pool for poker or sportsbetting are vast, which is why technology such as the Ethereum blockchain are a great advance.
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Old 03-13-2018, 12:24 PM   #1839
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by upswinging View Post
Ah yes. And the pc safe spacers come out to hate. I didn't name the countries for exactly this reason. It would derail the thread and make sensitive safe spacers like yourself feel uncomfortable/ shatter your outlook on the world. Maybe if you stepped out of your little safe space/ comfort zone and travelled or lived in different countries not as fortunate as yours for longer than a 2 week vacation you wouldn't refute what I'm saying.

I know you won't so just stop posting and pretending the little bubble you live in is reality for the rest of the world.

Have a nice day
So...you first make a wild accusation then are afraid to back it up with any modicum of evidence. I'd be very curious to find out where you're from. Surely a land of blissful ignorance and stupidity.
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Old 03-13-2018, 01:23 PM   #1840
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by upswinging View Post
Great post.

I'm curious why you think live poker will be ok? There's only 3 areas that might be ok but the rest of the country games have to be getting worse, right? That's for live cash of course. I think live mtts will always be ok because it's mainly for entertainment.
Maybe you can answer when you get unbanned but why would you think live poker would not be ok?

Live games were good and plentiful before the internet and while they are still good they might have been made slightly worse. Now the players starting online have been starved off but those types are typically antisocial and more skilled so they will not be missed.
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Old 03-13-2018, 08:25 PM   #1841
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by Maverick93 View Post
So...you first make a wild accusation then are afraid to back it up with any modicum of evidence. I'd be very curious to find out where you're from. Surely a land of blissful ignorance and stupidity.
It's just common sense and I guess hard to believe if you've never seen it first hand. When there are countries that have massive corruption, poverty wages, high cost of living, mass immigration, few opportunities, law is a joke etc etc... in that environment an abnormally high % of people lie and cheat in order to survive.

I say it's sort of cultural because when people have lived in that type of environment for GENERATIONS and it hasn't changed... it's a way of life and all they know (even if they know it's wrong). It's no different than kids who are born into the projects in the USA where all they grow up to know is gang violence and drug dealing. Or kids who are born into career criminal families... just on a macro scale.

Fwiw I studied socio economics in college and have lived abroad extensively. This isn't the thread to talk about (sorry mods) so I won't post again itt about that subject. It's startling that people attack/ get offended with any statement or view that doesn't align with their own. Yeah I'm sort of a dick and condescending but what i say is based on facts and studies.
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Old 03-13-2018, 08:35 PM   #1842
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

Quite a lot of opposing views and disagreement ITT regarding the best way to set up a new on line poker site.

So time for a new, which will happen next?

a) Donald Trump will invite Kim Jong-un to the White House and they will be seen laughing and joking together and Trump will call Kim a great/tremendous man/leader or very similar words.

b) Phil Hellmuth or Daniel Negreanu will win their next WSOP bracelet.

c) The Cleveland Browns will win 4 NFL games starting from now.

d) Beyoncé and/or Jay-Z will file divorce papers.

e) RIO Poker will launch real money games.

Last edited by SageDonkey; 03-13-2018 at 08:43 PM.
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Old 03-13-2018, 08:45 PM   #1843
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

c
d
b
e
a
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Old 03-13-2018, 10:04 PM   #1844
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

Hey guys, any idea when the site is being launched?
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Old 03-13-2018, 10:32 PM   #1845
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by SageDonkey View Post
Quite a lot of opposing views and disagreement ITT regarding the best way to set up a new on line poker site.

So time for a new, which will happen next?

a) Donald Trump will invite Kim Jong-un to the White House and they will be seen laughing and joking together and Trump will call Kim a great/tremendous man/leader or very similar words.

b) Phil Hellmuth or Daniel Negreanu will win their next WSOP bracelet.

c) The Cleveland Browns will win 4 NFL games starting from now.

d) Beyoncé and/or Jay-Z will file divorce papers.

e) RIO Poker will launch real money games.
"Hey everybody, look at me!"

Why are you not temp-banned? Why do mods put up with this?
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:02 AM   #1846
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by cramble View Post
"Hey everybody, look at me!"

Why are you not temp-banned? Why do mods put up with this?
Lighten up, it is a bit of fun. I did a similar what will happen first a few pages back ITT and the price of Bitcoin going to 1K or 15K (was ~8K at the time) was the option that happened first.

It is also of course having a friendly tongue in cheek dig at RIO Poker for not getting their site up more quickly.

..... North Korea halting their nuclear weapons program happening before RIO Poker is live etc.....

Last edited by SageDonkey; 03-14-2018 at 12:09 AM.
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:06 AM   #1847
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by upswinging View Post
It's just common sense and I guess hard to believe if you've never seen it first hand. When there are countries that have massive corruption, poverty wages, high cost of living, mass immigration, few opportunities, law is a joke etc etc... in that environment an abnormally high % of people lie and cheat in order to survive.

I say it's sort of cultural because when people have lived in that type of environment for GENERATIONS and it hasn't changed... it's a way of life and all they know (even if they know it's wrong). It's no different than kids who are born into the projects in the USA where all they grow up to know is gang violence and drug dealing. Or kids who are born into career criminal families... just on a macro scale.

Fwiw I studied socio economics in college and have lived abroad extensively. This isn't the thread to talk about (sorry mods) so I won't post again itt about that subject. It's startling that people attack/ get offended with any statement or view that doesn't align with their own. Yeah I'm sort of a dick and condescending but what i say is based on facts and studies.
At least we agree you are condescending and smarmy, and full of "facts and studies".

However, thanks for explaining that "Fwiw I studied socio economics in college and have lived abroad extensively". You should have said that sooner, then your blatantly ethno-centric smears against Eastern Europeans and stereotyping US urban projects survivors might have been appreciated and garnered you a Noble Prize or a white sheet with eyeholes.
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:09 AM   #1848
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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Originally Posted by ScotchOnDaRocks View Post
Maybe you can answer when you get unbanned but why would you think live poker would not be ok?

Live games were good and plentiful before the internet and while they are still good they might have been made slightly worse. Now the players starting online have been starved off but those types are typically antisocial and more skilled so they will not be missed.
I read that the average player is much better now than they were 5-10 years ago. Ie they're still making lots of mistakes but it's for far less money than before. A quick example would be everyone used to continuation bet ~pot in 3bet pots and now betting <1/3 seems to be the norm even from bad regulars.

For live games to run there generally has to be massive edges... it won't take that much improvement for the games to eventually die/ cave in on themselves as the player pool gets better and better
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:11 AM   #1849
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

Why is this on the front page? **** is not gonna be part of regulated markets. You bitches are just dreaming. STFU and let this thread die until real **** happens.
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Old 03-14-2018, 12:13 AM   #1850
upswinging
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Re: Phil Galfond to Start a Poker Site

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At least we agree you are condescending and smarmy, and full of "facts and studies".

However, thanks for explaining that "Fwiw I studied socio economics in college and have lived abroad extensively". You should have said that sooner, then your blatantly ethno-centric smears against Eastern Europeans and stereotyping US urban projects survivors might have been appreciated and garnered you a Noble Prize or a white sheet with eyeholes.
Where did I say Eastern euro countries in my last posts? You seem quick to attack and very sensitive in general. Take a break man, this is only poker (a silly game) after all.

It's actually disgusting on your part to say "my last name is Eastern European, therefor I know everything/ can speak on their behalf." It's almost as ridiculous as the guys who claim to have a black or gay friend, like that gives them any authority to speak on the matter.

Last edited by upswinging; 03-14-2018 at 12:19 AM.
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