http://img1.joyreactor.com/pics/post...ox-2381045.gif

Oh yeah the games suck on bovada now.
I agree with everything you posted besides calling recs fish. No need to call them fish, donks, ect.

Finally, some of the AMAZING things Daniel was talking about come to light.

Can we hope for high stakes tables and Top tier RB deals as per SNE?? If this is the case then the pro dream can still be alive (but not really achievable). And please as a rec/losing player I don't mind HUDs but no scripts please.

I want to say that one way to go for this site to succeed would be to make it the Pinnacle of online poker. Pinnacle succeeded because they catered to pros and used margins so low that the volume of action they got made up for the much lower juice.

Same thing can be done here, set rake to the absolute bare minimum to keep the site afloat and try to encourage as much reg on reg volume as possible. It will be much more appealing for people to play full reg lineups when they know they don't need to win by a lot to make up for the rake. Also possibly try to keep promotions to a minimum, save that money and focus on having as small rake as possible.

This model could keep the site going while it gains traction and publicity and attracts more recs.

Regs will not play reg only games, no matter what. There was a site with no rake at all which failed because it was so reg heavy. No fish and a crap client meant no games, regardless of low rake.

sounds like a 'typical' recreational player model concept to me, which isn't meant in any negative way

The "Pros" on Pinnacle are prolly less percent, than the pros in an average online poker player pool. besides that, reg on reg action may generate tons of rake, but this rake is money generated through deposits ... so unless most of the "regs" want to deposit regularly, i don't think reg on reg only won't work at all

Great news. Hopefully he is not discouraged by mud of regulations/lobbyists/lawyers he is about to start going through.
I am not sure what he is doing about software but that's a big challenge as well and a lot of money to burn through before he gets something decent.

All the best to him, I really hope he succeeds.

The "typical" recreational player model to me is simply sites trying to channel as much money as possible to themselves, while passing it off as "protecting recreational players".

This way any change that hurts all players (but usually full time players significantly more) can be passed off under this excuse, but of course it is just an excuse. There is nothing but hypocrisy from the sites as they exhibit predatory behaviour themselves towards rec customers on their sportsbooks, where they allow and encourage the fish to bet big on stupid bets and refuse to take action from anyone with a brain. Just like the regs they slam on their poker sites. They dont care about rec players and they dont even care about the long term "ecosystem" really, they only care about their bottom line and how much they can take from deposits.

If PokerStars REALLY cared about rec players they would implement changes like completely banning all software all together and severely limiting the maximum amount of tables that can be played. They would not go about it by raising the rake but then only informing goldstar+ of that fact, which is what they did recently. That is in fact targeting rec players when they claim to do the opposite.

There are fish in every game because different players have different skills.

Phil Ivey is a fish when he sits down at a 6 max game with OtbRedBarron, Sauce and Trueteller.

You are correct but a reg who is not deluded does not like being the fish and quits to find better games. Reg on Reg games do not ever last.

Disclaimer: I'm a terrible pessismist


but,

RIP Laliberte-monies. All those days spent at railheaven to now be poured down the drain.

I do wish him the best though. Good luck Phil

Make the site 2.5% rake across the board with no rakeback etc imo

bollocks ... picking out one example (in this case PS), doesn't represent the whole industry. and since i've read dozens of press releases about the rec model the last 5+ years, i certainly can tell, that "predatory behaviour" and "sustainable economy" SOUNDS like the typical recreational player model.

besides that, my comment was a reply to Galfondprodigys question about a potential SNE status, and if you read PGs blog carefully, you prolly come to the conclusion, that there won't be any high volume grind rewards (could be a miss interpretation from me, we'll see) in terms of higher and higher rake back, which again is from the 101 of recreational player model playbook.

since the poker room has the poker training site branding, it wouldn't be a huge surprise, if the reward system is somehow interlinked between both ... but enough of the derailing

i didn't say it in any negative way (e.g. some smaller rooms had quite success with such changes ... b/c they weren't filled with too many regs) and i stand to my 1st post, that PG is prolly one of just a few 'former poker-pros', i think could manage running a poker room.

How he runs it, if it works and all the other stuff can't be predicted though

I play HU and up until recently, there were many players who played other regs exclusively. Edges take quite some time to manifest, and when they do, you can always move on to the other player, and the player pool is large enough for those games to be sustainable.

Then, however, Stars decided to remove ALL non-zoom tables, TRIPLE the rake and remove all rb from nl1000 upwards. Now, the only games that run have obvious spot in them.

HU edges are bigger but in 6max it can take a very long time until you can know for sure what the rankings are. 6max games can sustain themselves a long time even with very little recs so long as the rake is small.

Doesn't seem like the best time to start a poker site. If people only cared about rake then these rake free sites would not go bust and nobody would play live.

+1

.

GodFond

Did you read what PG said? He will make it work.I doubt he just thought this up while taking a **** yesterday morning.
Lower rake + a smart, and sincere guy running it and a poker site can take off and give pokerstars some competition.
GL Phil you will be worshiped forever and a lot of peoples hero if you can pull this off.

That is awesome news for us consumers!
But man, its gonna be tough... I know Phil is smart and I'm sure he knows how much money he will have to sink into a new poker site like this and if he thinks it's gonna work, then I'm happy he's the one doing this. But I am kind of a pessimist on this... I wish him and the whole team the best of course!

If it's really going to be "only" a skin, then Phil can't do anything that he's talking about in OP.

There was plenty of reg-on-reg action before the rake changes, but mainly before scripts. At midstakes there was tons of 4-5 handed games because playing guaranteed you a seat with the fish. After the scripts, everyone stopped playing, got a script and just waited for the fish. Then we had the circus of the looped R's which was a ****ing joke and took forever to fix. Finally the R was fixed but by then things had gotten so much worse and edges smaller that people didn't bother playing regs anymore as much. At HS these ran also although part of the reason was also many people believed to have an edge over other regs (which is certainly possible when the effective rake is like 0.5bb/100). HU wars were super common.

There's many times where I won't play the 500z pool because with the reg:fish ratio, there's no way half the regs are beating the rake. If the rake was 2x lower I'd certainly play it more often.

Having that said, there won't be many 6max games full of regs you're right about that, unless the effective rake is really low and at least one person's ego's are high (but that's so rare anyway ).

That Pay-No-Rake site was a joke because it's only selling point was that you didn't need to pay rake, that was even the name of the site. There wasn't any real marketing to get anyone else but high-volume players and there wasn't any midstakes games running. No one was going to battle regs at 50NL without rake for a 2bb/100 edge when there was tables half full of whales at 100nl where you could make 5bb/100 + rakeback.

I mean as a rec/losing player and weekly depositor is all I want is not to be prayed on, plenty of game variation and a half decent software that doesn't crash all the time (unibet).

Yeah hopefully it's a standalone site and rio offers some come here rake x ammount in a month and get a free month at rio for return.

Plo w/ more than 4 cards please? Pretty please?