I think giving even simple HUDs to the average recreational player would cut deeply into the reg's bottom line. Fish would be able to see, "hmmm, I'm playing a 50/10 style whereas everyone else is playing 15/12..", and on average they would play better.

The second big problem PG talked about was sitting out.

I think there is also a very simple solution to that:

- !Get rid of "sitting out" function all together!

How would that work:

- Players cannot sit out any more, but can take breaks
- when a player sleeps or misses his action he simple folds, but does not sit out. Meaning he simple misses that one action where he did not react. future hands are not affected
- Players can take breaks, which lets them sit out on all tables at once (they may continue until their blinds)
- Breaks have a certain min. time they take (i.e. min 3 minutes) and max time
- You can take only so many breaks in a certain time frame (i.e. one every 15 minutes 3, every hour)
- If players miss their actions twice they get a pop up if they want to be on break and have to click no or will get put on break automatically.
- If players lose their connection they get put on break


I think this with the global wait list, would solve most of what PG was talking about.

There are some good ideas inthe thread for the bumhunting/waitlist problems.

imo the sytem should be based on the idea that you want to play poker, and it should be luck who you play against.

eg. you click to join a global waitlist, and then you will very soon find yourself placed at a table. You cannot leave/sit out for your first ?3 orbits. After that sit-outs are rationed. When you do leave a table you have to wait before you get back on the waitlist (if you were playing 2 tables you have to wait ?5min, if you were playing 8 tables you have to wait ?30min).

I realise this always gets instant disapproval and skeptisizm, but what about anon tables but with webcam. Untrackable but you can still make notes and socialize, JUST LIKE IN A REAL CASINO. Vialations such as covering eyes or camera can have a 3 strikes rule and penalties, a bit like how 'Disconnect Protected tables' are enforced. And indecent behaviour can be dealt with like any casino, ejected, banned without cashout etc. We've become so used to online pokers impersonal touch that webcam poker seems to worry people, but I think it will releave recreational players worries more, and give a better, more personal gaming experience! Bang for their buck.

Pros
1. Players can still identify who they are playing with/cheats will still be caught
2 .Stops tracking sites/HH buying
3. Brings back live tells
4. Implements a live poker method of taking notes
5. Much better bot detection
6. Extinguishes onliners harmful 'robotic' image of stat-reading button clickers

Cons
1. Can't play in underpants


Also, didnt Fulltilt manage to block PTR before they tanked? Why can't this be adopted? Im all for 2 month sn change too.

It is not the real disadvantage that matters, it is the perceived disadvantage. I know that many recreational players feel outright cheated if they learn that other players are using programms like HUDs when they play, they believe that these programms tell you what decisions to make in every situation and basically play for you, almost like a bot.
You cant teach those players the real function of HUDs, they wont listen bc it is too complex and by being ignorant they have an easy explanation for their bad results, an explanation that doesnt hurt their self-confidence but surely makes them refuse to play online bc there are people "cheating with software and the sites tolerate it".
More transparency is desperately needed to get those people to stick with onlinepoker and to increase their trust in equality of opportunity.

btw, its not exactly what you are talking about, but you can get webcam poker sites. and i think many people do enjoy these (i certainly do at times). and usually its way more social and enjoyable.

but i cant see this as ever being the main way in which poker is played online. I think too many people are wary of webcam poker.

I agree with this, however, i think the "hud excuse" is just one of many that frustrated recreational players use to explain their losses. and without huds, they will just find another excuse.

I think most fish wouldnt even bother to learn what those numbers mean to be honest.
They have access to this information already, but they choose not to use it bc they dont have the time or ambition to go through the trouble of buying and installing the software plus its an easy excuse for their bad results.
Do you think fish study their hhs?
Just bc its there doesnt mean everybody will use it.
Their problem with the current situation is that when they hear about HUDs they immediately come to the conclusion that that is the reason they are losing, that it is cheating, and that the sites do nothing to prevent people from gaining those unfair advantages, and that is the point where they usually say f... this, I'm getting cheated so Im out.
Dont hide those programms, make it accessable for everybody and nobody will complain about it anymore, guaranteed.
The typical fish will check the feature out, find it too complicated to learn what all the nrs mean, and continue to play the way they always played, but without the feeling of being cheated by people that have access to information that they dont have.

i think giving huds which are part of the poker sites software could potentially be a good idea. but they could probably only offer a v.simple one as the pt3s/hems take a lot of money/resources to develop and the only way to fund the development of them would be to increase rake. and the problem would be that those with the simple hud would have the same complaint as they have now but a bit altered (ie. i am losing becasue others have a better, more complex hud).

also, i dont think having a hud will really improve them that much. currently, they can easily observe that noone else is limp calling pf anywhere near the frequency to which they are, yet they still do this. i mean, when i play in my home game, everyone can identify who the nits are (and recognise that they only play the nuts etc), yet they always pay them off.

I know there are a few threads discussing the value of different players to the site. I believe it would be in the site's interest to restrict the mass-multitablers, which in turn should lead to a larger variety of opening ranges being seen at the table??

But, you are right. Just seeing 15/12 on the screen is going to send a lot of players towards learning about the game.

I guess we all what the game changed to suit ourselves. I want a game that I can enjoy for 10 hours a week, and win a few $$$ so I feel good about my game.

So I don't mind if the fish are less fishy, as long as there are more of them and fewer solid regs at my table.

They could surely make a deal with the developers of PT or HEM?
And if the changes have the effect that the sites are hoping for, I dont think a rake-increase would be needed any more.

I think tracking sites should be blocked however possible, or at least opt in by each player. I'm cool with personal DB's and HUD's though.

I like his argument for a max number of non-running HU tables, but where two players could still start their own new table.

I don't think there's much benefit to a must move system in the online world. It works in card rooms because the wait can often be several hours for the main game and no one wants to just sit there and wait. Online, there's usually some other game you can join.

I like extra benefits for those that actually start games, but I don't think they would be enough for a bumhunter to change their ways.

I don't know how to solve the button war problem either. I've even seen it happen in some live games. It's a problem and the only way I can imagine it being solved is for regs to just keep playing. If you're a good player playing against good players, you probably won't lose much. A poor player noticing that the game only runs because they are there loses you a lot.

any deal would still have to be funded by rake increases. and a deal like this would potentially be horrendous. the only advantage is that they could strike a deal leading to large economies of scale. other than this howevr, you get all sorts of problems. The poker sites will now have to effectively buy a hud for all of its users including those who do not want to use one (a terrible waste of resources, leading to increased rake). and also, hem/pt3 developers will now not be able to sell their product to the players, which effectively makes them employees to these poker sites - which in effect is the same as the poker site developing their own huds.

How many hands does is take to get an idea how someone plays?

I think being given info about the online players at your table makes it more like a home game/casino where you usually do know a bit about the other players.

edit:
The HUD I'm thinking of is super simple, just VPIP/PFR/Aggro or whatever. Just enough that I'm not starting from nothing when I sit down.

Yeah, but the problem is that HUDs are widely perceived as "cheating", and that no player will continue playing if he feels that he is outright cheated at the tables.
For many players it is a reason to stop playing immediately, and a reason to tell all their friends that onlinepoker is not trustworthy in general.
It would be a huge step for the credibility of onlinepoker to create more transparency about pokersoftware imo.
If players leave bc they realize they are losing too much money and feel that they dont have the skill to beat the games it is one thing, but please dont give them the excuse of being cheated and make them run away much sooner and with the impression (that they will share with their friends who may think about depositing too) that there is something criminal and shady going on.
It is just bad for the general perception of poker.

What is "getting buttoned?"

if they feel that they are being cheated, thats their perrogative. however, clearly this is not cheating as there arent any regulations blocking the use of huds. at the end of the day, most recreational players will never accept (and they also truly beleive this) that they lost because they arent as good or good enough to beat the games. and regardless of what method of cheating was used, the argument that they lost because they were cheated is one of the most common excuses for theri losses. ie. if there was no huds, some of those ppl that argued that they were being cheated via huds, will now complain that others have software that can see their cards etc.

i think that all that the "being cheated" (regarding huds) argument is, is just another excuse to justufy their losses. Because clearly the sites allow these, hence it is not cheating.

Then make it like a bonus, if you have x fpps you can use them to buy and install the PT directly on their site.
Just take the HUDs out of the shadows of the shady internet and make them accessable on the pokersite itself, that alone would help increasing the credibility and stop myths about programms that play for you and help you cheating other players.

Paying your blinds and then everyone sits out so you don't even get to play the button or any other hands.

I knew there was a reason I stopped playing online last year. I mean, besides the constant losing.

this is is very good idea imo. obv it wont 100% convince everyone that huds isnt cheating or whatever, but for sure it will go some way in making the use/knowldge of hud existence more open.

The point is:
A popular explanation for those players for why they lose is that they are being cheated. It is widely known that there was cheating going on in onlinepoker in the past.
The HUD in this case represents an obvious confirmation of their fears that other players have access to additional information and therefore gain an unfair advantage.
Recreational players wont differentiate here.
Why do we have to give them this easy explanation that additionally hurts the credibility of onlinepoker even further?
If someone thinks he is unlucky and running bad, he will come back. If someone thinks he is playing too bad, he might try to improve and come back. Their pride will make them come back. If someone feels he is cheated, he will never come back. Its just common sense.

- recreational players rarely beleive that they are playing bad long term, they are just the unluckiest player in the world, or are being cheated. If it werent for huds, they will just find another excuse for why they are being cheated. However, even though many beleive that they are being cheated one way or another ie. through huds/collusion/ppl seeing their hole cards etc most will come back becuase in the back of their minds, they dont seriously beleive that they are being cheated or because they beleive somehow they are good at poker and hence they will win

I don't know the people who you are talking about. But the rec players I know for the most part know that they are never going to be a great/pro player(or even a good player) They just want to play some cards. They don't really care if they are good or not. If they think people are cheating online(which a lot of them do) they will not play online plain and simple. They just want to gamble it up.

great article by Phil, he's a great writer and a decent guy imo. i agree with him how annoying it is that 50 people wait for 1 fish to play heads up. i can't remember the amount of times I got sit out on. the worst part about this is that a large portion of fish aren't stupid, they're just bad at poker. when they see all the sharks waiting to join their little swimming pool they might get scared off.

lol in my opinion this is exactly what America is about. i got warnings for "racism" on this forum just for saying something about black people. i used race but it wasn't offending. this is what you see in other american media as well, nobody can say a bad word about any sort of minority, use profanity, etc... also, if someone is not in line with the opinion of the ones who run the media(like TV channels) or it is too sensitive it gets banned in american media. i wouldn't really call that freedom of speech.