How much I like it right now is debatable. I took years off, started playing again last year and I think I have around 800 hours logged since starting back again.

The reasons that I still play right now include...

- Nothing else to do that I enjoy
- My only local friends are people I see at the poker room now and my parents and siblings live on other side of the country, so without poker I really dont have much around here.
- I have gone through a few waves of gambling addiction in the past and Im sure that to at least some extent this still drives me to play. I do believe you can be a gambling addict and winning player at the same time and I'm sort of in this category.
- There is a cocktail waitress that I have a nice relationship with whom Im thinking about lately. I went there just to see her on Friday and didnt even play.
- Usable cash and pride in my Bankroll.... The money is still a pretty big part of it, but not how others might think. My "poker bankroll" is a small % of my net worth and I have a 35 buy-in roll right now, so even a big win is not really even getting noticed in my life. Most wins and losses are not even noticeable. But to be a winning player, to keep seeing the numbers go up as I play more... this means something to me (see my PG&C thread if you want to know why). Being able to see myself as a winning player is probably more important than the actual money to me on a daily basis, but at the end of the year that cash pile is pretty sweet I am now finding.

Thanks for the thread because right now Im asking the same question as you a lot as I decide what I want to do everyday. I have become a bit of a grumpy ****er at the table in recent months and not a fun person to be around.

i find this post interesting. if you could somehow eliminate variance would you be happy playing? lets say your average hourly is $30, would you take $20 knowing you would make exactly 20 for every hour you played, no matter what? theoretical questions of course.
i work a normal job and wonder if i could get a $10 per hour average raise by playing cards if it would be worth it. seems like it wouldn't.

I had a successful PGC for a long time, I've also been a pro for 10 years. I almost never post on 2+2 anymore but this thread caught my eye and I share many sentiments already. I also do podcasts and make training videos for CrushLivePoker where I'm quite open about my disdain for poker and the people in it. Here's my list.

1. It's boring. As much as you want to believe poker is emotionally thrilling and exciting and mentally challenging, the majority of your decisions are incredibly mundane, even for "good LAGs" which are very scarce in the first place. A typical poker session involves hours of grinding with very few challenging spots, the game typically moves at a snails pace. In live poker the correct stategy almost always involves being tight and exploiting looseness of rec players.

Then I wanted to shift back towards online poker. I've been successful at live and online, 6m and heads up formats. The challenging aspect of playing online against good players lasted for roughly a year, year and a half. After playing mostly all live for many years. It's still a massive drain and it feels pointless. I was a very solid winner on US facing sites at midstakes as well, so it's not as though I couldn't win.

At some point you become completely numb to money and your own emotions. I've had relationships with people that felt boring, not because they are bad people, but because in order to be a successful poker player you need to learn to completely repress your emotions. For years and years I trained myself to be "boring" and numb, showing or feeling little excitement/disappointment towards big wins and losses. To pretend this doesn't have a carryover into your personal life is wildly untrue. There are very few players that can make a living playing poker whilst wearing their emotions on their sleeves.

When I slowed down and stopped playing much poker the last few years. I felt like a human being again.

I think a lot of people on the outside of poker have this idea that most poker players are wild degenerates that turn into the hulk at the drop of a dime (pun intended), I had the exact opposite problem - I became numb and emotionless.

The attitude that top pros are "boring" and "robots" is exactly true. However that's whats required to be a good player.

2. The environment

Live regs are ****ing terrible. Most of them are totally miserable and when I was a young, 22 year old kid that was playing live for a year at Foxwoods/Mohegan/AC, I always found it incredibly strange that all these east coast regs and Vegas regs are so miserable. How can you be that salty when you play a card game for a living?

The normal regs turn miserable from dealing with the miserable regs and degen scum day after day. It's tough to have a smile in there on a regular basis.

Now I completely get it, luckily for me I'm diversified enough that i haven't felt the need to tumultuously grind 40 hours of poker a week in a very long time. For those regs less fortunate/ambitious it can absolutely feel like a trap with no escape, the job you once loved turns into something you hate.

"Find something you love and you'll never work a day in your life" is the biggest crock of bullshit quote I've ever heard. You will turn your passionate hobby into something you hate.

I am also a reg that wins, I'm not a breakeven/small winner and the game certainly hasn't passed me by. I've had six figure years both live and online. I am not an endboss anywhere, but I always felt confident in my ability and work ethic. Poker just drains your soul.

At the end of the day, if you are a live pro, you need to be immune to the variance aspect of poker (which I was) while maintaining your love for the game in terms of volume/study (I didn't) and keeping yourself sane and happy. I was not happy, even with the myriad of distractions I involved myself in. Fitness/MMA, language learning, going out, travel etc. It's just not something that many people can fit into an ordinary life.

If you are a live reg you must be capable of showing up and dealing with effective scum of the earth for long periods of time. I've had people throw cards at my chest, I've seen dealers get spit on, I've seen people who obviously can't afford to lose. I could write a book about the dumb **** people do in casinos. I also play in Las Vegas. LA and other places are much worse.

This is also why I never took too much offense when people have asked me patronizing questions. I've had a guy asking me about poker like "yeah there must be easier ways to make 15$ an hour", "well what happens if you run out of money?" "Are you doing ok? Can you support yourself?"

These situations are also lose-lose for the poker pro. Hey you make $15/hr. If you respond - No, I actually made 150k last year. Look at this guy bragging about how rich he is.. good for you. It's always lose-lose to talk to civilians about poker. None of them understand it, none of them will ever get it, and if you become a pro you are signing up for this. It's not their job to understand your choices and the general public is going to think you're either a degen teetering on the edge or that you drive 3 range rovers.

I've seen people give the most ridiculous, illogical explanations for things that are so unspeakably stupid, but these are the people that you should be happy to have around you for profitability reasons. It's a huge tug of war between "these people ****ing suck and I'd never want to associate with gamblers anywhere" and "wow this game is great I can't leave". Poker is like an adult daycare with tens of thousands of dollars in play.

The community drains you.

3. The income ceiling

Ultimately I go back and forth on this whole "poker is dying" ****. Poker has been dying for like 10 years now. As far as I can tell, the games themselves will basically always be beatable. At what rate they can be beaten is up for debate, but the biggest inhibitor to pros making a living is not the training sites and information available. The vast majority of your opponents, be it regs or recs, don't study or work to improve because they either know everything or don't give a ****.

Your biggest enemy is the rake. People don't realize what a massive difference a small increase in rake has. I was typically playing at the Wynn when I grinded.

They raised the time charge from 6$ a half to 7$ a half. What type of ****ing nit would complain about a dollar when playing uncapped 5/10? It's an extra 2$ an hour.

Well let's say I'm a full-time pro logging 2000 hours a year. That's $4,000 that you are now losing, regardless of how good are bad you are.

It will effect bad regs moreso than good regs (it is a higher percentage of their income), but even if you're the top winning in the game making 200 or close to it a year, $4,000 is not an insiginificant amount of money and that's before other expenses and taxes. It matters.

I realize it doesn't make the game unbeatable but these numbers will continue to get worse and worse for the players, as well as games becoming marginally tougher year after year. There is no scenario where I walk into Wynn and a floorman shakes my hand and hands me $100 and says "congrats Rob, we lowered the time charge". Will not happen. The only direction is up.

I maintain my position that poker is best as a side hobby and not a full-time venture. I look back at the last ten years of my life and while I was successful at poker regarding almost any metric you could measure me by - I had several unhappy years and lots of doubt.

Not the doubt that I couldn't win, but the doubt that if I was to take my intelligence, drive and commitment to place it into any other field I'd of been more successful and happier by now.

Not to completely ignore the freedoms that poker gives, as I am able to travel and do what I like for the most part, which is something that I definitely don't underrate. But poker is certainly not the only job that allows this sort of freedom, but it is one that has a relatively low ceiling. If you look at an absolute world class online crusher, these are guys that make something like 600k to a million dollars a year.

It's certainly good money, but compared to other industries it's a low ceiling for players who are the best of the best, be it in terms of poker skill or access to soft, huge games.

People in other sports have fans cheering for them in the stands when they play their 2 hour game three times a week. Most poker players are forced to play 8 hour+ sessions and don't have the support system from fans or teammates that other "athletes" do. It's not easy to keep up that level of pace and competitiveness for years on end. If there was more of a social reward for poker players I'm sure there would be a larger enjoyment. Personally, I think the industry blew it in terms of the social and popularity aspect of it all with the controversy within the industry as a whole. But that's just my two cents anyway.

Any time you -have- to do something, whether it is going to the casino or the call center, it becomes less enjoyable.

I enjoy poker more post BF with a job than I did pre without one, although I make much less overall.

Great post Rob Farha rare large post good read


Agree with this a lot too. The current state of the game is a poor comparison to what it was mid 2000s and we can lay the blame of that on
A-the advances in theory and emphasis on the “correct way to play”
B- miserable regs who treat recs plays with disdain

I remember begging regs off table not to discuss strategy around 2006. Poker used to be a game where you clubs express yourself/Make crazy plays/regularly come up against other peoples crazy plays. The atmosphere was convivial and fun as players tested each other out with creative plays and had a laugh about it

Once those recs realised they were using bad strategy and where ridiculed by regs who were also stacking them wit their TAG poker they left in droves

This is so me, jesus christ. I thought I was the only one feeling everything that you wrote here. lol

Well said man... enjoyed your post!

good post overall but you're completely wrong about the biggest issue being rake.training sites, people improving etc are a way bigger deal than a rake increase. there is no question that NL especially is way harder today than 10 years ago. 4,000 dollars a year more in Wynn rake for example- that's a pittance compared to how much you lose to games getting much tougher.

For a while i crushed Bellagio 5/10 nl games and did well in 10/20 nl there.
I doubt I could make 25 dollars an hour in those games today and I would kill myself before the year was over. You're massively underestimating the importance of game quality. I'd happily pay 25k a year more right now to have the games of years back. And that doesn't even factor in that I'm a much better player now than when I could crush those games.

Even if a lot of people don't improve as much as they could, games are SO MUCH TIGHTER than years ago. You're clearly putting in the work to stay ahead of the curve.You have to be a lot better to make less money back then. Ten years ago I could go to the Borgata on a random wenesday and there would be at least five 5/10 nl games running and they were always great.Go there today on a Saturday and on a good weekend you'll get 2 5/10 games and they're almost always dirt.

And that 2,000 hours? Good luck getting in 2,000 QUALITY hours. It was easy back then.

4,000 dollars is a rounding error over the course of the year for a 5/10 nl pro not a massive difference. It's a coinflip lost.


As for why so many regs are miserable- simply put most aren't very good, the great games have dried up (laregly because of how regs act at the table) they make less and less money each year and that doesn't even take into account running like dirt sometimes for months on end.

There is seriously something wrong with my brain that I can handle losing so well. The last time I felt genuine rage at the table was right before I lost an all in where I was legitamately 99.76 percent to win the hand- on the flop ! I didn't even know it was possible to be that big of a favorite in a hand and it took a really weird scenario for that to be the case - i flopped the nut flush , my opponent flopped a lower flush and needed runner runner perfect pefect straight flush to win in plo.he had no way to make runner runner boat.It happened.
Once I lost i went from rage to pure zen- like this is literally the worst suckout I'm ever gonna have and it's ****ing hilarious.That's the worst the poker gods can throw at me. And i took solace in the fact I watch crappy regs lose 3 flips in a row and go off the rails- which honestly I guess is normal. Normal people don't calm down when they lose some comical absurd long shot.**** like that isn't healthy for people.

I've had three break even streaks of 500-600 hours in my last 5,000 live hours- and I have pretty good ****ing results over that entire time frame. Live variance is insane. I literally just got out of basically 550 hours break even (I averaged less than minimim wage lmao) and then my last 60 hours have been absurd where I just can't lose- and my hourly over those now 610 hours is actually higher than my win rates for any of my last 3 years. go figure that **** out.

It can be tiring going to the casino day in day out putting in the work and getting pissed on every day. Oddly enough due to the timing of these break even streches all of those years ended up pretty good and I never started off the year on one so it was never like April and I've made no money on the year which probably helped.I handle them pretty well. Most people won't- and logically if someone is a winner but worse than me (i'm no wizard i assure you) i'm sure their break even stretches can last longer making them utterly miserable. Then throw in the fact that most poker pros SUCK with money- they're going through these streaks basically broke.Misery!

I know a pro nice enough guy mostly 2/5 nl player- huge nit plays a little plo. Hates his life. He never got much better, he's mid 40s with 2 kids and a wife scraping by. He made good money when the games were super soft but can't anymore bc he never got much better and now wtf is he gonna do with a 10 or 15 year resume gap? i'd be miserable too. I bet he'd happily pay 4k for the great games from back then.

it's not the controversy. all sports have controversy. the astros cheating scandal happened and baseball will still print money this year.

poker popularity waned bc

1) tons of people tried poker, it was fun for a while, they got decimated and it wasn't fun anymore
2) poker in 2020 is basically UNWATCHABLE 99 percent of the time especially tourament poker. compare wsops from 2005 or whatever which are entertaining as hell to the snooze fests now. it's night and day.

It's not lack of support systems either- it's money. Lose for a while and you're making nothing. Athletes are getting paid tons of money. If poker players made millions a year bc of viewship they wouldn't be so miserable.

I agree with your sentiment but I think it prevents fights in multiway pots because someone running their mouth is less likely to cost you action/money. I'd prefer to suggest that you should be allowed to expose a card during the hand. Ultimately I dont think any of this would make the game more exciting for those that have grown bored of it. It would make more sense to switch to playing Omaha.

Very sobering thought to an OMC aspiring to be a solid rec.

"I've had three break even streaks of 500-600 hours in my last 5,000 live hours".

Yeah I had one of those break even stretches too except it was only 250 hours. Towards the end I was becoming one of those miserable regs hating everyone and stifling sarky comments. I could also sense the bad streak could go on a long time so I quit playing regularly

This was 6 years ago. I play occasionally. A lot of the same recs are still coming in to donate but they are much tighter and much better. A few regs also remain and they are also better but they look absolutely ****ing terrible. Feels bad because they used to be my friends and decent people but the grind has destroyed their personalities

Thanks for this framing. I've long gotten halfway there, understanding that a lot of my frustration with poker is how isolating it can be but somehow it being actively anti-collaborative and what that might mean never really clicked for me until now.

You could potentially take this completely down to the layer of the psyche too; that poker tends to lead to the various sub-elements and/or emotions in the psyche no longer "working together" either. A distrust of emotions can develop, leading to a dis-integrated psyche and potentially dysfunctional social life.

The cognitive machinery that' adaptive for poker can make one maladapted to the rest of life.

there is no way that your perception of poker players is realistic, you make me think of these people who can never get into a relationship and blame everything and everyone except themselves when really the problem is within them

Well that’s my experience... which is admittedly limited to a handful of poker rooms.

However. The miserable demeanour of the vast majority of regs/ high volume live players has been documented multiple times in this thread and others by many different posters. So there seems to be some consistent evidence that my observations are not unique

honestly i'm not sure he's wrong
i see a lot of people i used to play 5/10 and 10/25 nl with 5-10 years ago in the poker room and the vast majority are now playing 1/2 nl and some 2/5 nl. i walk by their tables and see a lot of them short stacking when they used to max buy 5/10 nl. some tried plo but couldn't cut it. most of these people look utterly miserable. and most of them are delusional and think they're just running bad bc they used to have great results and they don't want to acknowledge how much harder the games are and how much they have not improved at all.

most players suck with money, so when the games were great they just spent money like crazy and have nothing to show for it now.


same for tourney grinders.A TON of them had great results pre black friday. look at their hendon mobs and you see a lot of 6 figure cashes before then. after you see basically nothing of significance but a truck load of small cashes which means they're playing a lot of tournaments.i mean guys literally grinding tournaments for 9 years year in year out with NOTHING to show for it results wise and no money in the bank. sounds like self imposed hell.

it's funny when i play 2/5 plo a lot of the winners are small winners, not that good and you still see a lot of misery. when i played 5/10 or 10/25 the winners tend to be a lot better at poker, so they have more money,they're a lot smarter and way more pleasant.

some really high quality discussion itt

personally, I stopped enjoying poker roughly 5 years after I started playing for a living, for a myriad reasons stated by others itt. Sadly, it took me 2 more years before I finally quit, but once I finally did in 2017 it was a huge relief. Now I play a decent volume of live poker (used to play online almost exclusively) and it's actually quite fun, plus some extra money doesn't hurt.

On the plus side, transitioning from poker to a regular job was much easier than I anticipated - I thought that I would have a lot of trouble with adjusting to a new lifestyle, but it just felt good to do something else than poker. Fortunately, I never dropped out of uni and have a decent degree, so I was able to find an ok job.


also, this:

this is extremely relatable. Not sure if playing poker affects everyone in the same way, but it definitely affected me exactly as described by Rob

I would say that that people have a very fundamentally flawed relationship to mental game that has been reinforced in the coaching industry

Like the bashing of Hellmuth or Jungles rage fits

My theory is that this is what causes burnout and anxiety and cuts your longevity

If you are an emotional person repression is just really bad - there are countless clinical studies done on this with disorders, and the notion that you have to suppress emotions to be successful poker player is straight up wrong but deeply ingrained


There's a branch of psychology called acceptance and commitment therapy, even CBT accepted this that exposure not repression is the way to be able to face your emotion, phobias etc.

And you actually are supposed to go towards them, and then work on cognitive defusion and values work so you fully embrace your emotional spectrum but create a disconnect between actions and feelings

See them less as a dictator that you have to repress to take the correct actions and more as a guide, or a river you pick the suggestions from that are in line with tour values ( that you consistently work through)



This is very counter intuitive in poker but also in society in general that sees urges negative emotion as something to be suppressed. For a good reason, the economy is built on growth, and growth in the consumer world is built a lot about going towards certain emotional states and repressing others.

I've been doing this work for around half a year but it's really a struggle that takes enormous work and amount of exercises and exposure

And believe me taking this clinically proven approach in the psychotherapy industry will have profound impacts on both poker game and real life with both Reinforcing each other

As you can feel through emotions, be there for other people more, much more not less because of poker as you welcome and feel through difficult emotions at the tables it's easier to face and accept them with people yet do the right thing anyways as you have a training ground every single day at the tables

tbh, the main issue with poker in general is, that even tho you are making money in the long run and it may be enough to enjoy a decent living, poker produces absolutly nothing of value for society.

at the end of the day you are just clicking buttons

Does anyone feel the way I do.

Poker was some more fun when you have some luck on you side, at least
your fair share.

Unfortunately I know I'm probably one of the unluckiest poker players who's ever lived. So it sucks knowing I have to play so well to grind money, meanwhile I watch the Lex's or Staples of the world on live stream, and they do something everytime I watch them I haven't done my entire career. My wins are so clean, and they get massive handouts that take me years to get.

Knowing that I never get any of the free handouts that all other players get sucks. Living with another poker player was an awful experience for me.
The last 30 min I have watched him play, he's done things I won't do my entire life.

I wished I never watched other good players play, The streams are useful to watch so thats why I wanted to watch them, but they run so Godly just watching them stream is tilting.

disgree
most jobs are worthless and provide little to nothing of value to society.

lol you’re not the unluckiest player, but whatever helps you sleep at night