Most of my poker friends are rec and losing but more than 90% use HUD. Are the people around me special?

Yes. Recs I know IRL (not that comes to streams and coachings) don't even know people use them

When I told them that I guarantee at least half of ppl at $10 and above tourneys have them

they were like cool, Feels even better when I beat these guys

Not arguing for HUDS. Arguing for, wait for it....HAND HISTORIES, tada.

I need to study my play off line. Ignition is an anonymous site, the first site I chose to deposit. Unable to bum hunt, stats are only session for that table. I use the replayer in poker tracker to study my mistakes, leaks, equity, etc, stuff that is not allowed while playing.

As an added bonus, most bots/colluders are caught via studying histories off line, not with a hud on place at the table.

But that is being adressed by MyGame. You will be able to sutdy your game. You will have acces to your HHs, but in a different format.

Its not most, its minority and on top of that you get loads of false reports from salty loosers and whiners. But the security team has to resolve these reports instead of doing something to ban real bots. So the net effect maybe isnt even positive.

Sorry havent read all pages but can someone confirm that Pokerstars wont do the same policy ?

1. This goes back to TRUST US BUT DO NOT VERIFY. Viewing your playing information on the site could be manipulated. That is why it is important to be able to view this information:

1. From an independent source from the site.
2. At the point the hand is completed so the record is in stone.

2. It is highly doubtful that any poker site's analysis tool would provide any benefit in catching cheaters, colluders or bots. The simple analysis will most likely be limited to yourself and be of limited value. You will not be able to truly study your game and find leaks (unless if your leak is you play 80% of your hands).

-Derek

Seems party are removing players locations from next monday.

https://gyazo.com/2c24a830a1cb31aac6e69a4b8d6f9232

If someone can post that as a image would be appreciated im a noob.

I've cashed out from PP about 4 years ago, and since then just watching how they've been killing their business. But they are not effective even in this aspect )))

Anyhow, removing HHs is just a bs. Even if their field were fully anonymous, OCR data miners would get hands and then make exploitative adaptations to the pool's tendencies.

Poker teams will even gain a bigger advantage analysing footage (not going to say how) vs singular reg players or recreationals that may want to take the game more seriously in the future.

I was also a recreational player once, pt/hm is a very accessible way to improve and learn the structure of the game. No need for expensive software and computers/servers to do it before that.

Also HUD's don't tell you what to do and make decisions for you, it's your interpretation and study off the tables that will determine that. It's not any live assistance in the way you guys are trying to describe. As for games being more fun before hud's, what does that even mean? Well when the games were softer they were funner I guess, but knlowledge gained won't go away.

In terms of collecting data in chess, that was done much before computers, of course the people who done that study before gained a bigger edge, before the advent of computers which brougth a more leveling studying field.

People will use live assistance and will be harder to identify in the future with anonymous tables and without hand histories. Recreational players will not start to win more often without hud's, that's a mirage. Even if someone recreational thinks that, I will tell them the truth. I will also say that it's not rigged just because your Aces got cracked, or the chip leader won the flip on your table.

Perception is one thing reality is another entirelly different.

Whilst this is probably true, anyone that actually think that having hand histories or screen names available would make any difference is kidding themselves.

The games are riddled with live assistance and the only ones that have any chance to catch this are poker sites. Its super difficult to identify any of that through hand histories. Sad fact is that it is pretty impossible to detect even for a poker site (using their current methods). Video recordings are pointless and just a smokescreen for a site to say they are doing something.

Unfortunately sites have no incentive to get rid of these hidden bots/assistance. They might throw a few our way every now and then to have the illusion that they are tackling the problem. Fact is that there are plenty of things you can do to catch people they just don't want to catch them. Removing HH and screen names now makes it so that they dont have to deal with the PR of everyone saying there are bots

fyp to distill its essence.

Most online professional poker players are too selfish and self-obsessed to comprehend but this is 100% correct.

It's not even remotely close to correct. I'll set aside the fact that someone within our own industry is in here bashing something incorrectly for his own benefit.

There's three very legit issues going on here.

1) Removing hand histories should be a MAJOR issue to every online poker player. If you're unsure why this is, then I'd recommend watching the documentary 2+2ers did on Black Friday. We've had plenty of high level poker operators functioning in shady ways and stealing money from poker players. If you're concerned about rec players depositing and having positive views of online poker, then you should have your antennas up when poker operators tell you that, "don't worry, we'll police our own games." That's just utter nonsense.

2) Whether HUDs should be allowed in online poker games. The reality is that HUDs don't effect or change professional players ability to beat fish / rec players online. I'm not sure how this is being over looked, but generally speaking, players won't have meaningful sample sizes on fish to really apply any stats that are beyond VPIP/PFR and agg stats. Things that any semi-decent reg can deduce within a rotation or two of poker. Where HUDs come into play is against OTHER regulars. That's why some regulars on 2+2 are fictitiously arguing for rec players being upset about HUDs.

We want to protect the rec players (wink, wink). The rec players don't like HUDs. Let's be honest here at least, as this argument is not about rec players. The data doesn't bare out that rec players won't play online poker because of HUDs because... they did in groves when it was legal to play and easy to deposit.

3) What limitations should we have for online assistance programs? This again is the reasonable argument that should be raised. Pokerstars for example did the intelligent thing and created a set of rules for assistance programs. Why? Because they recognized that banning HUDs and other assistance programs would just push them into black markets where they would have zero control.

Whether hand histories exist or not is not going to stop HUDs. You don't need screen scrapers to gather data and run HUDs. It's easy to do on any site, whether they have banned huds or not. What you should be concerned about is any site that says they are removing all checks and balances on them, and just trust them to be their own cops.

The thing is: you can ban HUDs, but it's very hard to enforce and I highly doubt Party will put in the necessary effort to enforce it. There will be handgrabbers out there within the first few weeks after implementation of the changes. First they will be pricey under the counter, then cheaper mainstream.

No matter which site, I have multiple times seen people getting around enforced rules (I do make HUDs commercially, just for the record). Let's take f.e. Pokerstars which - I guess we all agree - has the highest level of security. I had a customer located in Austria playing on Pokerstars.it asking me for help getting his HUD to work better. First, he lives in Austria and plays on .it (which obv shouldn't be possible) and second he had all NoteCaddy-features fully available as he was using a handconverter. None of that was detected by Stars. What you think is going on on sites less sophisticated in terms of security than Stars?!

Implementing un-(or hard) enforceable rules only benefits people willing to break the rules for an extra buck and software-developers catering to the latter group.

For me Stars's approach is quite good: draw a clear line what's acceptable and limit 3rd party tools's power which basically sets an end to the arms-race which has started....it's just that even they suck in enforcing their rules.

Despite making HUDs commercially I'm not depending on that. It's more a kind of additional pocket-money for me. But if a site decides to ban/limit HUDs, then enforce it properly. Everyone thinking that banning stuff will result in not being up against the very item in question is wrong.

Couldn’t care less about feelings. The pertinent question is will these gunshy anti-intellectuals return?

Because if they don’t this seems an over-appeal to non-customers.

when i play online poker i...

- dont want to play against anonymous
- and i want to be able to look at my played hands,

even or especially after i left my tables. if a site doesn't offer this, i wont play there.

This is wrong, it used to be one SN-change every 3 months, they changed that like 1-2 years ago to one SN-change lifetime.

Everyone will be forced to get a new SN from Monday on and everyone will keep it until Rob goes IRL NAMES in 2021 lol.

Did anyone try that "mygame" thing? Somebody mentioned this will track the hands... I'm afraid to click on it, since I'm like 99,5% sure it's useless nonsense.

Can not agree with this more. Hud did not tell me the two fish at the table, I noticed calling every hand and raise. I cleaned both of them out, no assistance necessary.

Because most of them didnt know something like HUDs exists or supposed that such thing would be against the rules. If you like some data on the rec feelings, attend some affiliate conferences and see some customer surveys.

LOL what?! RECs and affiliates put in the same bucket! The term REC is the most abused one in the poker-environment. I bet +90% of players signing up through affiliates are REGs (REGs, not PROs).

That still doesn't refute my point. HUDs existed for years before black friday, and recs had no issues playing then. The poker economy was booming. Whether you have some anecdotal stories or not, the data is there. After black friday, did wsop and major poker tournaments attendance continually go down because of HUDs? No, it went down because online poker plummeted in the U.S. and eventually other countries because of government regulation. Now it's on a slight rise again because there's a slow trickle of U.S. states coming back online, and emerging markets playing more online poker than in the past.

Pre-black friday, 75% of my market was U.S. based players. Today it's barely above 20%. I can post a poker FB ad up, and the lowest performing countries will always be countries that have outlawed online poker, and by extremely wide margins.

If the fear is that HUDs prevent rec players from playing, the data and history of this industry just doesn't bare that out. I'm sorry. If you want to argue to not have them for other reasons, please do, but saying it stops recs from depositing is not a valid argument.

I guess in the distant future when most people play perfectly that would be the case, but if you are a regular in a game and play every day, there's no way someone appears out of thin air and starts to play above the crowd. Players develop overtime, you can identify their leaks and frequencies. This of course talking about regulars, OBORRA and Stembolov(?) were identified this way, there'a also a couple of other suspects. I think it was *****smies that wrote he could bring serious suspicions by the way people started to play.

Then there are the accounts who play a huge volume, with some very identifiable frequencies similar to other players. I think these can also be identified by the rooms and players

While we are still in the era of bots with fixed strategies, and players using assistance from scripts that access databases with recorded sims, I'm optimistic they can be catched.

Now when we enter an era of solvers in realtime/Libratus on your cell phone, then yes forget about it.

This thread has gotten long so haven't read it in entirety.
I understand concerns regarding integrity of games with HHs being removed, but my main concern, given stakes I will play, is whether one will be able to analyse post-mortem with PT or HM and with all their avaiable tools for filtering, etc?

I agree that laws/regulations are the biggest reason why the poker market went down. Also just the fact that the poker boom was just so big and there was so much hype, just like with many new things that later settle down. I am a pro player from about 2003 so I have experienced all that.

But how does that relate to assistence tools? Also the recs back then might have different demands then todays recs. All the tools back then were much simpler and not so intimidating for the recs. Today, there are a lot of live recs who just dont even try playing online and assistence tools are one of the major concerns for them. If you want to see the data, really attend some affiliate conferences. Also there was a big poll by Zynga poker back when they were considering turning into real money site for example.

No, you will get some feature reassembling that, but much simpler. You can go through hands, analyse some stats of yours etc. They will add more features gradually based on player feedback. Google PartyPoker MyGame, beta is already running.